Astra 2E: Western Europe Reports

[sonnetpete]

.....aliens trying to contact us from outer space on a bad choice of frequencies ........removal of the foil

If you removed enough you could make one of those hats to protect you from being mind controlled........sorry, back to topic...

 

[hexah]

I can afford BacoFoil you know.

In fact I'm wearing it right now.


Ooops.

 

[hexah]

I'm going to cross post my post in the Astra 2E: Iberia & Balearics Reports because the linking to specific posts doesn't seem to be working.

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/threads/astra-2e-iberia-balearics-reports.159949/page-34

post #666


I have been at this satellite lark for coming up to three decades now, more if you include the anticipation of reading the reports in Television magazine, etc.

I am still amused that many people in Spain particularly are failing to understand some of the basics of big dish use. I am not criticizing you here, I mean the kind of installer who turns up on a horse wearing a large stetson (I suppose it keeps the sun off!).

Read my reply on another astra thread, on receiving Astra 2E: Western Europe Reports on a 2.4m dish post #209

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/threads/astra-2e-western-europe-reports.159945/page-11

If they are going to space out the satellites a bit more it will create problems with big dishes because of the narrow beamwidth.

If they are more than 0.2 degrees apart it may be necessary to have two large dishes to receive them consistently with enough gain to ensure reception at all times.

Remember that the satellites wander around in their 'box' in the sky and you have to take that into account.

Atmospheric electrical thermal noise and man made background electrical noise and aliens trying to contact us from outer space on a bad choice of frequencies is something we can't do much about except try to drown it out with a big dish and to ensure proper shielding in the cables (removal of the foil and making sure the braid wire is evenly distributed around the cable before putting the F connector on, if its not a crimped f connector a decent amount of self amalgamating tape and a drip loop will stop it sliding out under its own pressure).

The principle of beamwidth selectivity is fundamental to using a big dish. And so is the satellites annoying tendency to wander. Thats why a big dish (from 3m to 6m) in a professional dish farm can remotely adjust for inclination.

What I am saying is that what few people seem to realize, despite installing these dishes for years, is that if you want to get weak signals from co-sited satellites with big dishes there is a point where you have to use two or more big dishes due to the narrow beamwidth and the need to provide enough gain to ensure constant reception (and so avoid domestic violence).

In my view this effect means that once you go over about 1.5m then you are better off assuming a 0.1 degree granularity in KU band no matter what the published specification says because there are so many factors that plague weak signals.

Recall that the mid band circa 11.5GHz specification for 3dB beamwidth at 1.5m is around 1.2, at 1.8m its 1.0, at 2.7m its down to a narrow 0.65 degrees. With my ancient 2m dish the polar mount has a massive threaded bar easily four times as thick as the ones they use today. But even with that room to manoeuvre on weak signals selectivity is surprisingly sharp.

So the unfortunate truth is that once you need to use dishes in the 1.8m to 2.7m bracket and above then if you really want reliable 24/7 reception which I assume is the aim then you have to do what the professionals do and that is to use two big dishes.

If you want 24/7 reception there is no way around that as you cannot ensure enough gain and good CNR and MER any other way. (MER measures how much the weak signal has been mangled on its way to the receiver).

Also bear in mind the advice I keep giving and that is to find out what dish size people use and try to use the next size up. I use an 80cm here for 28.2e when I could use a 60cm and it means the signal never cuts out no matter the weather (google huricane bawbag) and I don't get moaned at.

I don't know what prices are like in Spain but I recall the large Channel Master (now Raven) dishes being two to three times the cost of prime focus metal dishes like the Famaval. I would be inclined to buy two big Famaval dishes if I was in Spain. With the mostly calm and dry climate of Spain I really don't see any point in getting a Channel Master dish except for professional use. Even if I did want a GRP dish a Laminas is cheaper and just as good.

Looking again at the Famaval catalogue I see the biggest offset they make is 130cm. All Laminas dishes are offset, but they are all GRP.

Sods law means once you put up two big dishes, the channels will be combined on one satellite. You sell your extra big dish at an annoyingly low price then six months later they split the wanted channels over two satellites 0.2 degrees apart again . . .

All in all its a kick up the Balearics.


Making that relevant to Germany I would say the situation is the same. The weather is fairly calm and fairly dry (compared to here!), though snow is a seasonal problem. I don't think cheap Famaval metal dishes are easily available. Laminas make heating systems for their dishes. Without it the offset should make the dryer snow slide off with its own weight. The heavy wet snow will stick like porridge, unfortunately.

 

[cazhh]

the epoch for 2e didn't update for a few days. That's why it was shown on n2yo at 28.45. In fact it hast been around 28.35 all the time if you use the SES data.

 

[stephenG]

Hi All, new to the forum.
I live in Grasse south France near to Nice/Cannes. I can no longer get any BBC/ITV on Astra 2E/2F since 12th may. Today installed a 120cm dish - still no BBC/ITV reception from 2E:2F grrr, all the other stuff stil there.
Would a horn type LNB help ?, or only bigger dish ?, any experiences welcome.
btw: The echostar FreeSat+ box says 0% signal on all BBC/ITV/C4 etc channels, however the Topfield 6000F says 75% signal but quality 0% - not sure I trust the built in signal strength that much though.

 

[PaulR]

When you say all the other stuff is there what do you mean? From your strange signal and quality reports it sounds like you've aligned onto the wrong satellite. A 120cm (you have measured it horizontally - right?) satellite dish should at least give you patchy reception of the Beeb, etc.

What do you mean by a horn type LNB? What do you have at the moment? A final thought - I've assumed that you have an off-set dish (taller than it is wide with the LNB low down pointing up at the dish) but could you have a prime focus dish (circular with the LNB dead centre) with the wrong LNB?

 

[alec]

No UK spot beam reception here - even on meter - since 12 May - not just me but at least 2 others with 120 cm dishes and quality LNBs.
Sly News etc. still 100%/90%.
Starting to enjoy the Japanese view on NHK World - fantastic HD :-)

 

[cazhh]

Did you try today ? When do you usually test ? We've had some terrible days here on the eastern end of the mainlobe, but the SNR (aka Quality) recovered yesterday evening.

 

[4wd]

May be of interest, after a period with very good 2E uk some time ago, many days now with much weaker reception here (whatever the weather). 2E euro no changes.

 

[stephenG]

When you say all the other stuff is there what do you mean? From your strange signal and quality reports it sounds lie you've algned onto the wrong satellite. A 120cm (you have measured it horizontally - right?) satellite dish should at least give you patchy reception of the Beeb, etc.

What do you mean by a horn type LNB? What do you have at the moment? A final thought - I've assumed that you have an off-set dish (taller than it is wide with the LNB low down pointing up at the dish) but could you have a prime focus dish (circular with the LNB dead centre) with the wrong LNB?

By "all the other stuff" I mean the non BBC/ITV/C4/Channel5 channels the Freesat+ (Echostar HDS600) expects to see in Freesat mode, these all seem to be on Astra 2F and Eutelsat 28A (Astra 2F 99% signal and Eutelsat 28A signal 80%). The dish (reflector part only) is 110cm wide by 120cm tall (the Gibertini dish, marketed as 100CM dish, which I have been using for the last 4 years is 94CM wide x 100CM tall) - so maybe I stand corrected on the size if it should be measured horizontally. Given that up to less than a week ago I was able to get a signal on most of the SD BBC/ITV channels (HD has been out since feb) with the 94cm Gibertini I was also surprised to see absolutely no Astra 2E signal with the 110cm dish.

By horn LNB I mean the type of prime focus LNBs used on "big dishes" that require the separate LNB / feed horn as opposed to a universal LNB. I was thinking of something like this http://www.2galli.fr/boutique/images_produits/fMTISAP8PF_1-c410.pdf supposedly the AP8-T2FE can be used for offset dishes. But I think this is barking up the wrong tree. I am using an MTI High-Line quad universal LNB.

Signal loss since last week was the same at all times morning afternoon, evening early hours... Since feb 2014 total loss of HD channels and occasional loss of SD channels particularly in the evening but generally ok during the day, until total loss last week.

 

[PaulR]

Have you checked that the skew is set correctly on the LNB? slacken off the clamp holding the LNB and rotate the LNB one way and then back to get maximum signal. If the neck is long enough try pushing it in and then out - again for maximum signal.

I would perservere with your current LNB first before buying another. I've not heard of that type you've linked to but your second thought is correct, PF type LNB for PF dish and offset type LNB for offset dish. The PDF doesn't actually say which one is which though...

 

[hexah]

The dish (reflector part only) is 110cm wide by 120cm tall (the Gibertini dish, marketed as 100CM dish, which I have been using for the last 4 years is 94CM wide x 100CM tall) - so maybe I stand corrected on the size if it should be measured horizontally.

Yes, a proper offset 1.2m dish is 120 x 130cm, thats why the Channel Master 1.2m can seem superior to other 1.2m dishes when in fact the other dishes are 10cm smaller!

Prime focus dishes are a bit different, there are a variety of old and new dishes with sizes like 117cm, 120cm, 125cm, 130cm, look at the Famaval website for examples.


edit: so it seems the small prime focus antenna are not so popular with manufacturers (the offsets are usually wall mounted, it sits flatter). This ancient type of design Jonsa P0901 won't be seen out of Asia or the Middle East, if you find one in Europe its virtually a museum piece!

 

[stephenG]

Have you checked that the skew is set correctly on the LNB? slacken off the clamp holding the LNB and rotate the LNB one way and then back to get maximum signal. If the neck is long enough try pushing it in and then out - again for maximum signal.

I would perservere with your current LNB first before buying another. I've not heard of that type you've linked to but your second thought is correct, PF type LNB for PF dish and offset type LNB for offset dish. The PDF doesn't actually say which one is which though...

Yes I tried optimizing the signal for LNB skew and placement of the neck of the LNB in its clamp.

Using the Freesat+ box this morning I tried manually checking the signal strength for each of the transponder listed on kingofsat on Astra 2E and 2F.
Astra 2E : All transponders on the european beam are good with most 90% signal or better and a few on 75% signal, but UK spot beam all transponders 0% signal.
Astra 2F : I don't know if there are separate beams, but far as BBC/ITV signals go I can only get a signal on 10994 H (TID 2036) and also on 11052.75 H (TID 2063) both 75% signal, all the other BBC/ITV transponders 0% signal, otherwise 75% or better signal for all non BBC/ITV transponders except 12574 H and 12581 V both 0% signal. The anomoly of 10994 H and 11052.75 H might just be down to TX on a bit more power...who knows...

So I think I am pointing to the correct satellite(s) and unless I have a very precisely adjustable fixing bracket as opposed to the usual U bolt clamp etc.. I doubt I can get it better, I spent several hours trying to get it as good as possible yesterday.

Actually I now not very convinced another LNB will solve the problem as the existing one has good snr and gain characteristics. The issue would appear to be a loss of signal strength and not loss of gain, which of course means a bigger dish..... However I am reluctant to splash out as a bigger dish means what.. 130cm, 140cm, or even bigger.. ??. The difference in gain at 10.45 GHz between the Gibertini 94x100cm and the 110x120cm is about 1.5dB, and it doesn't seem to have made much difference.

Time for lunch.. and a rethink.

 

[hexah]

Where is the dish mounted, on a wall?

On a stand in the garden?

 

[stephenG]

Where is the dish mounted, on a wall?

On a stand in the garden?

On the roof on a concrete chimney.

Do you think it makes a difference ?

 

[RichardinSpain]

Yes I tried optimizing the signal for LNB skew and placement of the neck of the LNB in its clamp.

Hi StephenG
I also have lost most of 2e spot beam but 2f ok (apart from itvhd) most of the day
It mattered what time of the day i was adjusting the dish/lnb , because of the low signals if i got the best reception by doing it in the day time i found i got drop out in the evening so decided to do my fiddling in the evening (when i watch tv most) to get the best reception

 

[stephenG]

Hi StephenG
I also have lost most of 2e spot beam but 2f ok (apart from itvhd) most of the day
It mattered what time of the day i was adjusting the dish/lnb , because of the low signals if i got the best reception by doing it in the day time i found i got drop out in the evening so decided to do my fiddling in the evening (when i watch tv most) to get the best reception

Hi RichardinSpain
I was fiddling up to 8pm yesterday. Did you find tweaking the LNB made the difference, or dish angle / azimuth, between the day and evening drop out ?.

 

[RichardinSpain]

Hi RichardinSpain
I was fiddling up to 8pm yesterday. Did you find tweaking the LNB made the difference, or dish angle / azimuth, between the day and evening drop out ?.

I think my dish is set to it's optimum as when ever i have checked it by slightly putting pressure left right up and down on the dish sides any time of the day it has lost signal, so the majority of my tweaking has been a fraction of adjusting on the lnb skew and pushing the lnb in and out a fraction..I have a offset dish and it's floor mounted and what i found that if i took the bottom lnb support arm off and rested one end of the arm on the floor and the other end on the lnb itself (not on the lnb bracket itself) it pushed the lnb down a fraction which gave me a slightly better signal, obviously you wouldn't be able to do this if your dish is mounted on the chimney, but it might be worth putting slight pressure on the lnb arms up and down to see if it makes any slight difference (if it's a offset dish)

Ah just read in your profile that you have 1m dish so will most probably have only one support arm anyway

 

[stephenG]

I think my dish is set to it's optimum as when ever i have checked it by slightly putting pressure left right up and down on the dish sides any time of the day it has lost signal, so the majority of my tweaking has been a fraction of adjusting on the lnb skew and pushing the lnb in and out a fraction..I have a offset dish and it's floor mounted and what i found that if i took the bottom lnb support arm off and rested one end of the arm on the floor and the other end on the lnb itself (not on the lnb bracket itself) it pushed the lnb down a fraction which gave me a slightly better signal, obviously you wouldn't be able to do this if your dish is mounted on the chimney, but it might be worth putting slight pressure on the lnb arms up and down to see if it makes any slight difference (if it's a offset dish)View attachment 65421 View attachment 65421 View attachment 65422

Ah just read in your profile that you have 1m dish so will most probably have only one support arm anyway

10994 H and 11052.75 H on A2F have now gone (5pm) since checking at 11am morning.

The dish alignment is such that slight pressure left/right up/down looses signal. I had to be careful to tighten the bolts on the clamp evenly or this also lost the signal. I'll try fiddling with the LNB tomorrow evening (no time today).

Sadly my garden, big as it is, is such that there is no way to have a ground fixed dish without being a long way from the house.

Have nice w/e.

 

[RichardinSpain]

10994 H and 11052.75 H on A2F have now gone (5pm) since checking at 11am morning.

The dish alignment is such that slight pressure left/right up/down looses signal. I had to be careful to tighten the bolts on the clamp evenly or this also lost the signal. I'll try fiddling with the LNB tomorrow evening (no time today).

Sadly my garden, big as it is, is such that there is no way to have a ground fixed dish without being a long way from the house.

Have nice w/e.

Hope you have some luck tomorrow
I suppose you are in a better position than me as far as if you are getting a signal on a 1 metre dish then think of the difference you would maybe get on a 1.1m or 1.2m which are quite cheap in relation to a dish i would need. I'm trying to find a cheap second hand 1.5m as at the moment my budget won't stretch to a new one..I'm surprised that there arn't any listed in the classifieds in Spain..There must be a few people at least further south than me that had a 1.5 that can't receive anything anymore