Skew problem with Fortecstar LNB FSKUVN and Icecrypt 0.1db single LNB

Information exchange on LNBs, Single satellite, motorised and multi-satellite systems. DiSEqC switches, positioners, motors, actuators, dish-alignment etc.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24-06-2008   #1
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.
Skew problem with Fortecstar LNB FSKUVN and Icecrypt 0.1db single LNB

This is the LNB FSKUVN, which Maplins sell with their Passion HD package.

The customer had tried to set up the dish himself,but had problems, so I dropped in to do the final alignment.

With the LNB in the usual Skew position for Astra 28.2E, I was getting abysmal quality readings and a very flat spectrum, so I moved it further around until the spectrum improved, but found I was on the opposite polarity.

Well the picture attached is where I had to put it for perfect skew, have included a red line to show where I would have expected it to be.


Edited for additional information
. Also similar applies to the Icecrypt 0.1db single LNB. There is a feint scale on the top of the LNB, but many people will assume that the cable connector should be vertical at the bottom.
Attached Thumbnails
Skew problem with Fortecstar LNB FSKUVN and Icecrypt 0.1db single LNB-fortecstar_skew_problem-jpg   Skew problem with Fortecstar LNB FSKUVN and Icecrypt 0.1db single LNB-skuvn_lnb-jpg  

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 17 Users Say Thank You to rolfw For This Useful Post:
andrewianfox33 (24-09-2008), Atomicbullet (18-08-2008), barney100 (18-01-2009), bertieboy (11-05-2009), bobble22 (16-02-2009), chipper (28-08-2008), DeanoDave (05-08-2008), fortechd (03-01-2009), keithj (19-10-2008), maggienoodles (01-07-2008), michaelcs (24-08-2008), sirutor (1 Week Ago), Strat (18-08-2008), swimmer (21-12-2008), tomslick (10-02-2009), tonysenior (06-07-2009), woodhead (21-08-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #2
Amo Amas Amant Admin
 
Topper's Avatar
 
Join Date: 18-11-2004
Location: Blackburn NW England (Siberia)
Posts: 11276
Thanks: 24
Thanked 504 Times in 464 Posts

My System: IDD CI24 ECONO MM Penta 1.20 Galaxy II 1.2Mtr Polar MTG yes it has been on the arc for 21 years and is still driven by a modified wiper motor from a Ford Anglia. It's like me sometimes groans but always performs


Saved us from the black plague of ignoratio elenchi, he awaits a special badge with jugs
Yes

That is interesting Rolf and I am sure many others will benefit from your post.
I suspect that the designer of the lnb has come of from under a rock and designed it how he/she felt it should be from the electronic perspective but failed to proof their design in a practical test.
The opposite polarity trick I used myself when my lnb began failing many years ago.
It is useful to know but difficult for people to understand why it happens, it took my brain a while to understand it but it is all down to the principle of the phase locked loop pulling in the nearest frequency of that polarity

War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left!

Formerly toppervte33h
whose six pack has turned into a keg

Help support this web site by making a donation
Or use other options to help support Sats UK
Show Your Support
by clicking the button

Thank you.
Freddie Flintoff is back



Topper is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Topper For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #3
Super Moderator
 
satelliteman's Avatar
 
Real name: Paul
Join Date: 07-05-2007
Location: South Midlands, UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
Posts: 4376
Thanks: 24
Thanked 540 Times in 476 Posts

My System: Zone1, DSI8215 SkyHD, Thomson DSI4214, TF5000CI, Dreambox DM800 HD PVR - Nab BH0.12, TM-5200D, Gibertini 104cm, SNH-031, 36v Actuator, Vbox-II, 42°E to 30°W, Sling Media, Televes H45 Digital Processing Analyser, Satlook Micro+G2 NIT, Rover SDM 1s

Nice one Rolf
I bet a few of those problems newbie's have had have actually been down to this maybe

Bit like when I am checking a quatrro at dish location on systems, it faster for me to spin the LNb to check other polarity than change the band on the spectrum , LOl

satelliteman.
.....
A Detailed DiSEqC Motor Installation Set Up Guide > HERE
Quick Reference Guide also > HERE

Satellites UK site Advertisers
.
An Installers Choice
......

Follow us on
.
satelliteman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to satelliteman For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #4
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

Yes, I was using the Satlook NIT, so new I was on the correct satellite by the spectrum display, but a non-spectrum meter using identifier transponders would have given negative or uncertain results. That's why I prefer using the Satlook on most dish setups, as opposed to the Rover ST4.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rolfw For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #5
Super Moderator
 
satelliteman's Avatar
 
Real name: Paul
Join Date: 07-05-2007
Location: South Midlands, UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
Posts: 4376
Thanks: 24
Thanked 540 Times in 476 Posts

My System: Zone1, DSI8215 SkyHD, Thomson DSI4214, TF5000CI, Dreambox DM800 HD PVR - Nab BH0.12, TM-5200D, Gibertini 104cm, SNH-031, 36v Actuator, Vbox-II, 42°E to 30°W, Sling Media, Televes H45 Digital Processing Analyser, Satlook Micro+G2 NIT, Rover SDM 1s

Out of interest Rolf, if you go to full span mode with ST4, doesn't that show the whole IF spectrum on the particular band you on anyway. I normally look at Horz OR Vert low band for 28e on spec in full span.

satelliteman.
.....
A Detailed DiSEqC Motor Installation Set Up Guide > HERE
Quick Reference Guide also > HERE

Satellites UK site Advertisers
.
An Installers Choice
......

Follow us on
.
satelliteman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to satelliteman For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #6
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

It does, but not very well, the spectrum display on the NIT is very clear.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rolfw For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 24-06-2008   #7
Super Moderator
 
satelliteman's Avatar
 
Real name: Paul
Join Date: 07-05-2007
Location: South Midlands, UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
Posts: 4376
Thanks: 24
Thanked 540 Times in 476 Posts

My System: Zone1, DSI8215 SkyHD, Thomson DSI4214, TF5000CI, Dreambox DM800 HD PVR - Nab BH0.12, TM-5200D, Gibertini 104cm, SNH-031, 36v Actuator, Vbox-II, 42°E to 30°W, Sling Media, Televes H45 Digital Processing Analyser, Satlook Micro+G2 NIT, Rover SDM 1s

Yes, I did read a few write ups on the NIT Spec. It looks the business.

It's all about knowing the traces of satellites and how well you can identify them. That's down to experience too as you know

Would of been difficult to discover without the professional spectrum.

Nice find anyway

satelliteman.
.....
A Detailed DiSEqC Motor Installation Set Up Guide > HERE
Quick Reference Guide also > HERE

Satellites UK site Advertisers
.
An Installers Choice
......

Follow us on
.
satelliteman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to satelliteman For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 25-06-2008   #8
Amo Amas Amant Admin
 
Topper's Avatar
 
Join Date: 18-11-2004
Location: Blackburn NW England (Siberia)
Posts: 11276
Thanks: 24
Thanked 504 Times in 464 Posts

My System: IDD CI24 ECONO MM Penta 1.20 Galaxy II 1.2Mtr Polar MTG yes it has been on the arc for 21 years and is still driven by a modified wiper motor from a Ford Anglia. It's like me sometimes groans but always performs


Saved us from the black plague of ignoratio elenchi, he awaits a special badge with jugs

Originally Posted by rolfw View Post
This is the LNB FCKUVN, which Maplins sell with their Passion HD package.
Perhaps the designers were not so inept after all just dyslexic

War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left!

Formerly toppervte33h
whose six pack has turned into a keg

Help support this web site by making a donation
Or use other options to help support Sats UK
Show Your Support
by clicking the button

Thank you.
Freddie Flintoff is back



Topper is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Topper For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 25-06-2008   #9
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

LOL, I wondered who would notice the unfortunate model name.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rolfw For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 25-06-2008   #10
Member
 
Join Date: 22-06-2008
Location: galway/eire
Posts: 8
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

My System: motorised/technomate receiver/dish 80cm

HI ROLFW. What are the advantages of a professional meter compared to the ordinary variety? What is the spectrum?Shine a light on the darkness.
tommo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tommo2 For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 25-06-2008   #11
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

It's all down to the amount of information available to you.

The cheap swinging needle meter/sat beeper tells you when you are on a satellite, but not which one, or what the quality of the signal is.

The new generation of digital meters will give you various degrees of signal and quality readings, some will give you a satellite identification by comparing three or four unique transponders, or read the satellite information from the datastream.

A meter with a spectrum display, will do all of that, but also show you a physical representation of the spectrum, which can be used to recognise at a glance which satellite you have found.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rolfw For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 25-06-2008   #12
Super Moderator
 
Robbo's Avatar
 
Real name: Mark
Join Date: 17-05-2007
Location: Kent,UK
Posts: 4487
Thanks: 76
Thanked 632 Times in 600 Posts

My System: TM6800HD, TM1000, TM600 Linux,TM5200, TM2200 motor, Triax TD110 dish + Fortec 85cm. Meter=Satlook Micro+G2 NIT

I think this guy may be having the same problem possibly

Help no bbc or itv on fortec start passion hd receiver


It is the same FSKUVN although FCKUVN is what they should have called it

Robbo is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Robbo For This Useful Post:
maggienoodles (01-07-2008)
Old 08-08-2008   #13
Member
 
Join Date: 08-08-2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: new

Hi:
How i know the north skew in this lnbf(fsku-vn) coss noy have any visible mark.

Thanks in advance
Roly62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2008   #14
Rd100
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

A bit off topic is that a 90cm dish and was the dish also from maplin just asking as i know some one who is after the 90cm dark gray fortec star,

Originally Posted by rolfw View Post
This is the LNB FCKUVN, which Maplins sell with their Passion HD package.

The customer had tried to set up the dish himself,but had problems, so I dropped in to do the final alignment.

With the LNB in the usual Skew position for Astra 28.2E, I was getting abysmal quality readings and a very flat spectrum, so I moved it further around until the spectrum improved, but found I was on the opposite polarity.

Well the picture attached is where I had to put it for perfect skew, have included a red line to show where I would have expected it to be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2008   #15
Design Engineer/Installer
 
Join Date: 08-08-2007
Location: Central UK, E Cheshire ..near Jodrell
Posts: 987
Thanks: 74
Thanked 156 Times in 143 Posts

My System: 75e-75w C & KU, 36v h-h /36v & diseqc actuators / diseqc -USALS motors / Anlg to HD Channel Masters C120s dishes, stb's inc echo3000, lnbs, meters, custom polar mounts & elevation/incline actuator conversions...

I think we have had someone else on DS with that problem with a Fortec /Maplin kit ... struggled for ages trying to just line a dish up .. just changed the LNB and got going all of a sudden. A lot of Fortec stuff seems to er.. fall short .. we tested an Omega and it kept crashing if you scanned something it didn't like... we swapped it over to an existing motor on USALS with exactly the same position and offsets .. and it moved it.. only a bit but enough to knock 20-30% off the signal... not sure if the USALS was actually 100% compatible. Must be the worse stuff to start on for a newby.

pedro2000uk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to pedro2000uk For This Useful Post:
swimmer (21-12-2008)
Old 16-08-2008   #16
Regular Member
 
Join Date: 30-06-2008
Location: heathrow
Posts: 96
Thanks: 10
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

My System: FS4200, iss 70cm dish,single passion lnb and a compro s350 using dvbdream as the compro software is crap

its amazing how much the skew of an lnb can improve reception,mine went from 50% intensity and 30% quality to 90% and 72% with a few degrees of skew
portly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2008   #17
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

Yes it does make a big difference, hence why they alternate polarities, so as to cause minimal interference from adjacent frequencies.

@ RD100, sorry, missed your question, it was the 60cm version of the dish.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2008   #18
Member
 
Join Date: 14-08-2008
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: Fortec HD Passion+ 65cm Dish and 'correctly skewed' LNB supplied in Maplin kit.

This thread possibly solves my problem also.
I have the same kit (Passion+ HD from Maplin) and possibly because no dish instructions were included this is the first I've heard of LNB skew.
The Sky dishes around my neighbourhood all appear with the connector vertical but if the skew is internal then they would.
I guess I'll have to get the ladder out again tomorrow evening
Strat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008   #19
Member
 
Join Date: 14-08-2008
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: Fortec HD Passion+ 65cm Dish and 'correctly skewed' LNB supplied in Maplin kit.

RolfW you are an absolute STAR.

I came home this evening and put some skew on my LNB, went inside and saw 94% quality...WOW. A bit more tweaking and it's up to 98%.

Reset and rescanned and I now have loads of rock solid channels including BBC HD.

It's just like you said (as if I'd doubt you) anti-clockwise as you face the front of the dish.

I am very happy. Please send your bill to.......
Strat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2008   #20
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

LOL, glad it helped.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2008   #21
Believe it when I see it Admin.
 
rolfw's Avatar
 
Real name: Rolf
Join Date: 01-05-1999
Location: Southern England
Posts: 29855
Thanks: 51
Thanked 1095 Times in 691 Posts
Blog Entries: 5

My System: Pace Sky HD, DM7000s, CubeRevo 3000HDPVR, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Televes H45 Digital Spectrum analyser.

Looked at another one of these today and found that there actually is a very feint scale on the top of the LNB, but even using that, the centre mark does not give zero skew.

Zero skew is around 4 O'clock.

Rolf
If you enjoy our site, you can help support it by wearing our unique branded merchandise, you can do this by clicking on my baseball cap, making a direct donation with Paypal by clicking on the Donation button below, or using our site supporting advertisers, to do this, click on the central image below. Follow us on Twitter, click on the twitter image.



rolfw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2008   #22
michaelcs
 
Join Date: 03-08-2008
Location: Central London
Posts: 5
Thanks: 7
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

My System: Fortec Star Passion HD, Dreambox 500 clone (absolute novice), Fortec 90cm dish, Icecrypt twin LNB, Moteck SG2100 motor, IBM laptop, Belkin router modem

Originally Posted by rolfw View Post
Looked at another one of these today and found that there actually is a very feint scale on the top of the LNB, but even using that, the centre mark does not give zero skew.

Zero skew is around 4 O'clock.
Rolf, I can only endorse what everyone else says. I bought this kit five weeks ago to be ready with HD for the Olympics. Was in despair as a newbie after putting it up on a terraced central London rooftop, and moving to new locations (!) every weekend trying to get better signals, and couldn't face my wife who had been sceptical throughout. (The first receiver had to go back to Maplins as the remote suddenly ceased to drive the receiver though it still worked the TV; finally got a replacement after over two weeks because Maplin lost the paperwork....). Still no signal from BBC HD. This evening back up the ladder and turned the sodding LNB as you advised - now I'm getting rock solid channels across the spectrum. (Plea for someone to write this into the set-up guides - the Fortec receiver guide is really inadequate on Disecq set-up unless you know what you're trying to cahieve, and even statelliteman's excellent set-up guide on this site doesn't explain about LNB polarity or skew. Thanks to you all anyway, including satelliteman). Without you all I would have given up long ago.
michaelcs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to michaelcs For This Useful Post:
fortechd (03-01-2009)
Old 26-08-2008   #23
Member
 
Join Date: 13-08-2008
Location: telford uk
Posts: 15
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: motorized fortec star

skew angle was all my problems as well fortec star from maplin cheers folks
markjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2008   #24
Member
 
Join Date: 08-06-2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: Sky
wish i'd seen this yesterday

Just spent all day pulling out my hair trying to get one of those to work. Then I found the small markings and realized I had to turn it. Oh well another day off gone to waste. Works now. Yeah
bartman007uk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2008   #25
ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
 
Join Date: 26-08-2008
Location: Groomsport.
Posts: 5
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

My System: CM dish, 1.8 Manhattan receiver.

I am now a banned member
sadza is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
fortecstar, fskuvn, kit, lnb, maplin, passion+ hd, problem, skew


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off







All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:24 AM.


All views and information expressed in users' communications and profiles represent the opinions of the users concerned and do not represent the views of Satellites.co.uk. All images and news content are believed to be in the public domain, except where otherwise stated. Forum software by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.1