Help with DIY Install - No Signal

Philip58

Hi Everybody,

This is my first post, and I will confess to being new to both this forum and to satellite TV. I was in France recently and I purchased a Sagem ISD91 HD box with a 60cm dish and a single universal Lenson LS101 LNB (ref 800657), which I brought back to London in order to watch French TNTSat TV. I have put up the dish and connected everything together, but I don't appear to get any signal at all.

I have read through all of the "stickies", and also Puntodepartida's excellent instructions. This is what I have checked so far;

1. Alignment of dish (East London) - elevation 28.3, azimuth 156.1 (true) or 157.9 (magnetic) and LNB skew -7.1 degrees.
2. Line of sight from dish - clear sky all the way to Astra 19E.
3. TNT Access Card - installed the correct way up.
4. Cable - with a test meter, I know I have connectivity between the box and the F connector at the LNB, and no shorting between the outer braiding and inner core.
5. Power at the LNB - During scanning for channels, I have measured both 13v and 18v at different times at the external F connector (I can't accurately check the current, as the scale on my meter goes from 1 to 10 amps, but it is clearly under 1 amp).

These are the questions I have at the moment;

A. From everything I have read, I believe that I have the dish correctly aligned, but how accurate do I need to be? I'm sure that I have the elevation right, but how close should the azimuth be - nearest degree, minute or seond? How critical is the LNB skew? If this was wrong, would I get a feint signal, or nothing at all?

B. During alignment, I can see the TV screen. The strength of signal display (from the box) shows just a small red bar (i.e. no signal). Are these displays usually "live" or do they simply show a record of the signal at the instance the button on the remote control is pressed? What extra benefit would I get from a strength of signal meter?

C. I know that TNTSat HD TV is not switched on until 15th February 2009. Surely I should get the standard signal? Presumably, I register my TNTSat access card once I get connected?

D. The box seems to be functioning correctly, but how can I be sure that the LNB is not faulty? The LNB box says incoming frequency 10.7 to 12.75GHz, which matches the specification requirements given in the Sagem manual. However the LNB itself is labelled 12.25 to 12.75GHz, but this is not what is given on the Lenson website. What is the significance of these discrepancies?

E. What else can I check?

Many thanks in anticipation for any help or suggestions that anybody can provide.

Regards,

Philip

Robbo

Hi,
to get a signl from 19E with a 60cm dish, you don't need to be very accurate at all, a degree or two should be close enough. I assume that this is the satellite you are after.

I suggest that you go to dishpointer.com and check which way to point the dish.

Go to lyngsat.com and check for a valid transponder.

Tune your receiver to that frequency, and adjust the dish until you get a signal, starting roughly where dishpointer says. Once you get a good quality signal, fine tune both elevation and azimuth to maximize. Once you have done that, you will be spot on. The same goes for the LNB skew, adjust for best signal. From behind dish, it will be anticlockwise a bit.

Start with the dish face, very slightly pointing up from vertical.

rolfw

Sometimes this dishpointer site does more harm than good. Don't get hung up on the dish settings, they can only be used as approximations as it is near impossible to set azimuth and elevation accurately enough without using some sort of meter or using the receiver signal strength and quality readings.

If you have an inline meter, use that to gauge when you have found a signal, gently and slowly move the dish on the pole and the dish elevation until the tone or needle rises on the meter. You will on some meters, need to increase the attenuation to enable fine tuning once close to a satellite, bear in mind also that the required satellite (I presume Astra 19.2) is not alone on the Clarke Belt, it is very easy to accidentally find one of its near neighbours.

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Philip58

Robbo, RolfW,

Many thanks for the information so far.

Yes, to clarify, the required satellite is Astra 19.2E. I have checked on Dishpointer.com, and the dish alignment given there is exactly the same as I got from another website (and as noted in my original post).

Right now, I don't quite understand what a transponder is, but I can do a bit of research on this. Also, I'm not sure how I can tune my receiver, so I will have to try to translate the manual from French!

I understand the mechanics of aligning the dish, but my problem is that I swept a huge expanse of blue sky, and I still didn't get any signal at all. I would have been quite happy to have accidentally found another satellite, if only to prove that my LNB was functioning as it should. I would still like some verification that the specification of the LNB is correct. The model number, LS101, is on the box and the device, but the frequency ranges do not match.

Regards,

Philip

Robbo

Yep, the LNB is correct,
_http://www.lenson.fr/Products/Lenson-LNB.aspx?productId={B82D3BB6-603F-4767-942E-FC15A27C252E}&Tab=0

Generally, when using dishpointer I don't pay any attention to ANY of the numbers, I just use the map, which shows a green line indicating which way it has to point, once you have your sat and location punched in. (OK, white lie, the elevation figure can be important if you have obstacles)

It could be the LNB that is faulty of course, but not being able to get a signal is 'par for the course' on you first try.

What I do is slowly swing the dish one side to the other, interpersed with small adjustments of the elevation, until my meter blips. It doesn't matter which satellite you find to start off with, as once you have found one and identify which one it is (based on the channels it carries), you can work your way round to the one you did want.

Transponders are just the thingies on the satellites that receiver the signal from the earth station and then transmit it back down to us. Each transponder operates on a particular frequency.

howc

Thats exactly the problem I was having last week. Even with using Dishpointer and a Satbeeper I couldnt find 1W. In the end the Sat was no where near where I expected it to be. My advice for what its worth (not much I know) is .................Move the dish slowly. Your receiver might take a couple of seconds to register anything from the sat, and by then you have moved it too far.

Topper

Absolutely, very sound advise (if you will pardon the pun), it is not like the analogue days where you could actually see you were approaching a satellite, now you move 1 degree and wait for a couple of seconds, there is a lot of processing to be done before the first picture or sound appears. Also bear in mind that your dish (assuming offset) should be near vertical when viewed from the side

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Philip58

Hi Everybody,

I just thought that I would give you an update on my successes over the weekend, so that anybody reading this post in the future can learn from my experiences. In my response, I will use the same references as the questions in my original post;

A. The green line on Dishpointer.com appears to be accurate. I could see on the birds-eye view that the line passed directly through a tree about 50m away from my house. Using an orienteering compass I checked the magnetic bearing from my dish, and sure enough, it lined up on the tree trunk. Dishpointer.com was easy to use; you can drag the marker to where you want, and you also get the magnetic bearing (which I didn’t get on the website I used previously). Also, during initial alignment from the top of a ladder, it was easy just to point my dish at a tree, rather than having to rely on the compass again. During fine tuning, I turned the dish on its post, marked the bracket at the two extremes of where I lost the signal, and then split the difference. The two marks were only 3mm apart (on a 50mm diameter post) equating to about 6 degrees overall between the extremes. I had a reasonably signal about 1mm either side of my centreline, suggesting that an accuracy of about 2 degrees either way would be good enough to get a picture. Of course, fine tuning gave me a stronger signal, and a clearer picture.

Before I made my initial post, I correctly deduced that I needed to allow for the offset LNB, in order to align my dish vertically. However, it was comforting to see Topper’s sketch, as this confirmed what I had done. I know that my bracket is plumb, but after fine tuning I found that my dish was set to the 30 degree marking on the bracket. This difference could be due to any number of reasons, but the initial 28.3 degrees was good enough to get me a signal and a reasonable picture (although the sound was not so good). The LNB skew did not appear to be too critical for me, but at -7.1 degrees, this is nearly vertical, so rotating it did not make too much difference.

B. During alignment, the strength of signal display (from the box) showed a bar across the bottom of the TV screen. I can confirm that this gave me a “live” readout, since I could see it changing as I moved the dish (i.e. I did not have to “refresh” the screen between each move). As HowC and Topper have said above, moving the dish slowly was the key, and waiting between moves was also necessary. In practice, I found that ten seconds was enough when I was first moving the dish, but as I got closer to perfect alignment, the display seemed to change almost instantaneously. Strangely, the only readings I ever got from the display were 0 red, 100 red, 100 yellow and 100 green. In the instructions, this equated to no signal, bad signal, medium signal and good signal. There was nothing in between, unlike with some other signal displays I have seen online. I cannot say what the 100 means; the picture in the manual shows a signal of 200 green, with the marker only two-thirds of the way across the screen, suggesting that the strongest signal reachable could be 300 green (but I’m only guessing). Because I was not able to tell exactly where the strongest signal was, I decided to split the difference between the 100 reds (as already explained above). Maybe somebody with a Sagem box could explain this strange way of displaying signal strength?

C. After translating the manual from French, I was relieved to find the paragraph that said my box could be used for standard and HD reception. Also, once connected, my TNT card was automatically registered giving me four years of free access. For those that don’t know, the card will be replaced on expiry, free of charge, if you return to the shop where you purchased the original (in my case, Darty in France). There is no need to pay £50 to buy these on line (although I suppose this is cheaper than having to travel to France just to collect a card).

D. I suspect the label on the LNB was incorrect, although it seems odd that a manufacturer could make such a fundamental mistake.

In summary, I would like to thank all of those who contributed to my success with their sound and consistent suggestions and advice. Also of course, thanks are due to the guys at TechnoMate (Four Seasons TV) in Walthamstow, who gave me some equally good help and information.

Regards to you all,

Philip

Robbo

Yep, 1 degree on a 50mm diam pole is approx 0.45 of a millimetre, and yes its a good idea to align to the centre point between the points either side where you lose the signal.

Glad you got it sorted, well done!

boristhespy

Having the same problem Have the Strong SD box and have until 3rd Sept to activate my card. This will be my second dish installation. The last on Hotbird 13 e was easy peasy. but I am having real difficulty.


The Stong doesn't give much options for help. I only have a French manual but still there is no meter as far as I can see. So was using a satellite meter, got bugger all signal and now using Comag SL55 and its meter to try and get this thing set up. No luck.

I have set the dish up at what I thing is the correct settings.

Lat 56.56
Long -2.59
Elevation 22.8
LNB 6.3 anticlockwise.

NOTHING. I don't even get a twitch from another satellite. I know to pause before moving again having done this before however really having trouble even getting asniff of a signal.

Changed the LNB but I still get good quality. JUst no strength. So I assume the LNB and reciever are talking.

Given I have 3 days!!!!! before my card is usless can anyone advise.

I will say that I have a couple of leaves 10 meters away in the way but have tried elsewhere in the garden with similar ZERO effect.

boristhespy

Sussed it. I have had too much elevation. Infact I got a sinal with the dish (80cm) pointing downwards towars the ground and past the vertical. Never would have figured that.

satelliteman

Result..

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Tivù

This "rogue" reading is a common cause for mild consternation - But in fact you will get one even with the LNB removed from the Dish: All it is doing,for a non-aligned system, is telling you that the box and LNB are electrically connected.

As you've discovered, the reading only has merit when it starts to change and can then aid alignment and have some real value.

Well done getting it resolved

boristhespy

THanks for the well done. I watched French TV outside on Sunday. I went to link it up to inside the house tonight and nothing. Quality of signal 85% so lnb talking but noe sttrength.

I am pissed. I check it has not moved. I marked the dish positions including nut positions and everyone is as left on Sunday.

Despite this I did move it about a little but no signal. At least I think the card as it was working must have been activated but I cannot for the love of me suss this out. I get zero signal at all despite everything being hunk dory or so I thought. Any clues?

rolfw

Well if you had it working, it can only be something that has been changed, cable and connectors being the favourite.

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boristhespy

Yeah tried that so used same cable as before and nowt.

satelliteman

Have you reset/rebooted the receiver?

Normally get signal strength and no quality. How sure are you the dish isn't mis-aligned.

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boristhespy

not sure. May be now having mucked about with it but I marked it and put the dish back to these. Just no strength at all. Quality is 85% But that's just the LNB speaking I guess. Just perplexed. Tried two boxes, the Strong which tells you bugger all and another box which has a meter and nothing. tried two cables including short one which I used to align and watch telly on Sunday. it's a bit wierd.

pgh13

So, where have you moved the dish to? If the dish hasn't moved it has to be cables or connectors.....the screw on F connector isn't the most resilient when swapping things around

boristhespy

I unscrewed it and had awiggle about. Out it back to the same position based on my marking but may have mucked up. Just didn't see how it could have gone given I used two different cables ona professioally produced ready made one which I previously used to tune in.