Nilesat: Narrower Band LNB's and Gain.

***Turok*** · 11-11-2008

here,nilesat H is very strong,have also signal druring havey rain with 1,25 gregory,so nothing for dxing on this satelite for me!
never tested this kind of 12 ghz opimeized lnbs,how much "better"they realy are,on a signal meter,how many db you can win with such this kind of lnb?

**canofan** · 11-11-2008

Originally Posted by Turok

here,nilesat H is very strong,have also signal druring havey rain with 1,25 gregory,so nothing for dxing on this satelite for me!
never tested this kind of 12 ghz opimeized lnbs,how much "better"they realy are,on a signal meter,how many db you can win with such this kind of lnb?

Hi Turok,
Narrow band LNBs, like the Norsat 4000 series are single band LNBs. Other manufacturers also make single band LNBs. No V/H switching, so you turn the LNB 90° to get the other polarity. They use only one microwave sensor which simplifies the placement of the sensor. This ensures their quality. They are available in 3 guaranteed Noise figures 0.8, 0.7 and 0.6db. But in reality these figures should not be compared to the commercial figures of Universal LNB's, including Invacom, Such manufactures serve the industrial market and they cannot publish data which they cannot substantiate. At the same time, it is generally felt that those specifications are pessimistic, because the equipment, used to measure noise, cannot go below the 0.6db floor. They have a WR75 (Rectangular waveguide) interface. They are best used in conjunction with A WR75 Feedhorn designed for the dish. They perform worse when coupled to a C120 feedhorn through a transition, because anything in between causes loss. Also because they are specialised in their Band, they are not used with motorised dishes.
As far as I know, Prodelin is the only feedhorn manufacturer who designed a dual mode feedhorn with a WR75 waveguide, optimized to cover 11.7 to 12.2 ghz, but will cover 12.2 to 12.75 ghz less effectively; Channel Master uses the Prodelin feedhorns.
When you use a Norsat 4206A Single Band, or equivalent, with a dual mode WR75 Prodelin/CM feedhorn on a CM 1.2m dish, you obtain the same result as on a CM 1.8 dish with an Invacom flange LNB, coupled with a corrugated C120 Prodelin/CM.
The Ratio of the Area of 1.8m to the 1.2m is 2.2. Therefore a 4 db increase.

**GreenmanBelg** · 11-11-2008

Originally Posted by canofan

Your longitude is 5.149 East so it is very close to Sirius at 4.8 East.
It is very close. you just go ahead JD.
Seems like the wind has calmed down. As it is holiday, you may be able to set it up to day.
Cheers

Too windy here, its a next weekend job all going well. Might try a BEST lnb just for the hell of it since its on the ground. Will let you know.

**patmos** · 12-11-2008

Canofan, you explain things well. This is difficult to enter many people's head when you say that a 0.6dB LNB performs better than a commercial 0.3 dB LNB. Big names like california Amplifier,Norsat or the other japanese( I forgot the name) is better. We use a CAl AMP 25K LNB for C band and it is much much better than the commercial 15K. I also believe that narrrow bands should perform better.

**Channel Hopper** · 13-11-2008

Originally Posted by patmos

Canofan, you explain things well. This is difficult to enter many people's head when you say that a 0.6dB LNB performs better than a commercial 0.3 dB LNB. Big names like california Amplifier,Norsat or the other japanese( I forgot the name) is better. We use a CAl AMP 25K LNB for C band and it is much much better than the commercial 15K. I also believe that narrrow bands should perform better.

There is no such thing as a 0.3dB LNB operating at Ku band.

**patmos** · 13-11-2008

Originally Posted by Channel Hopper

There is no such thing as a 0.3dB LNB operating at Ku band.

What do you mean by this statement. Invacom and others quote this figure and less.

**canofan** · 13-11-2008

Originally Posted by patmos

What do you mean by this statement. Invacom and others quote this figure and less.

Channel Hopper is right.
Manufacturers who destine their LNBs to the consumer market seem to feel free to publish unsubstantiated specs.
We consider that unsubstantiated specs are not valid.
Perhaps some units turn out to be good performers but this is no reason to claim a spec that you have not been able to measure.
I have seen Astrotel specs claiming 0.5db noise. Knowing Astrotel, these are probably substantiated. They may have more sensitive measuring equipment for this.
But at the same time if Norsat and the other professionals disposed of that same equipment they may perhaps also encounter lower figures, which they then could use to substantiate newer published figures.

**Llew** · 13-11-2008

SMW readily supplied both the graphs of the gain/noise figures of their LNBs and the equipment used to measure them.

Would the manufacturers of cheapo LNBs do the same? Might be worth asking them, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Llew

**canofan** · 13-11-2008

Originally Posted by Llew

...........Would the manufacturers of cheapo LNBs do the same? Might be worth asking them, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Llew

No they do not.
Any quote of noise/gain spec is void of meaning if it is not substantiated specs.
This applies to cheap and less cheap.
I know a supplier who selects Invacom quattro flange LNB's and supplies them with graphs that he produces in his own lab. They sell for 155 Euro excluding VAT.

**canofan** · 14-11-2008

Originally Posted by Llew

SMW readily supplied both the graphs of the gain/noise figures of their LNBs and the equipment used to measure them.

Would the manufacturers of cheapo LNBs do the same? Might be worth asking them, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Llew

Hi Llew.
SMW's substantiated specs are all 0.8db NF. This makes me think that their measuring equipment does not show how good they are.
I feel that if they used some of the newer measuring equipment they should be able to show their marvelous performance and compare favourably with the other professional LNB manufacturers.

**Llew** · 14-11-2008

Make what you will of it canofan, but the graph that accompanied my LNB shows a NF reading below 0.8dB through the frequency range of that particular model.

Granted 0.8dB is the minimum reading of that graph, the line clearly shows it falling to perhaps 0.65dB mid-range.

Llew

***BombedOne*** · 14-11-2008

If anyone interested, there's a review on the net, where's Invacom 0.3db LNB was dismantled and analyzed. the noise ratio of input transistor (which is generating that noise) was no where close to 0.3db.

Regarding nilesat, I've wont mind to change place of living with anyone living at UK. Here you can perfectly receive all H's and V's from nilesat, in any weather, with good quality lnb and good quality 60cm dish

**canofan** · 15-11-2008

Originally Posted by Llew

Make what you will of it canofan, but the graph that accompanied my LNB shows a NF reading below 0.8dB through the frequency range of that particular model.

Granted 0.8dB is the minimum reading of that graph, the line clearly shows it falling to perhaps 0.65dB mid-range.

Llew

Please do not mistake my appreciation of SMW LNBs, they are great.
The only thing is that I wish they used measuring equipment that would show them off.
This is not their priority, it seems, as they will stop making DRO LNBs.
And the customers for PLLs have other criteria for their choice.

***Turok*** · 15-11-2008

Hello!
intrestingly,i got not always informed,that some one,has replyed to this topic,so now my answer comes a little bit later!

i have wideband band lnb form smw,with 2 output,each freqency,it performs very well,one coasts around 250€ (each)dealerprice!
its very heavey around 400 gramm

smw,stop production,of the lnbs at the end of this year!
so you must be hurry,to buy,this rar lnbs!
have now the series nearly complete,only the much more expensice black dro series (latest one)is missing in my collection,can anyone tell,how good this series perfom comparing with the xlines?
or is the performance,the same,only the price is higher?

**canofan** · 15-11-2008

Originally Posted by BombedOne

If anyone interested, there's a review on the net, where's Invacom 0.3db LNB was dismantled and analyzed. the noise ratio of input transistor (which is generating that noise) was no where close to 0.3db.

above or below?

Regarding nilesat, I've wont mind to change place of living with anyone living at UK. Here you can perfectly receive all H's and V's from nilesat, in any weather, with good quality lnb and good quality 60cm dish

Are Thor Astra1 and Astra2 too weak to receive in your Area?
I had in mind to go live in Georgia, but this, now, knocks it on the head.

best regards

**canofan** · 15-11-2008

Turok,
As you know, I have a DRO WDL 1000E from SMW that functions well, but it is the cylindrical type, NF 0.8db TYP 1.0db MAX. It weighs 256g. It is a WR75 like yours.
I keep it for comparison purposes. It is a V/H switcher and usually I use the high output of it.

BoSSpak · 15-11-2008

I've got the same lnb WDL type E F-connectors @ High stability LO. +/-1.5Mhz Part Number 122520 which i have not had the time to fit and test on my dish, due to time and work load

but will do in couple of weeks hopefully. (Roman David if you reading this my friend, i have not forgotten your request for photo's i will get these to you asap

)

I also purchased the X-line type E lnb, which i passed onto a friend who is testing it for me on his dish. He seems to have a small problem which is beyond my scope i hope one of you kind gents can help.

when using X-line type E lnb with my nokia 9600s with dvb2000 switching between low to high band is working fine like a normal universial lnb functions but he tryed using on a nokia dbox2 with MD-Image v5.31 and can not seem to get the bands to switch.

He has the following information in the zapit.conf

diseqcType=0
lastChannelRadio=23
lastChannelTV=4397
lastSatellitePosition=192
lnb0_OffsetLow=9750000
lnb0_OffsetHigh=10600000

P.S Turok i will get in touch with u, regarding the poloriser, sorry my friend i just been very busy at work and have no time at the moment. I wish i had more time to play with this brillant kit i purchased but hey ho that's life

Regards

BoSS

***Turok*** · 15-11-2008

okay okay no problem,then you want polariser ,contact me this month,otherwise,iam on holiday in middle of december!

testing norsat and smw together i must day,that smw is better,in 10-11 ghz range,and not soo "good" on 12 ghz,and on norsat it is via versa !

but smw when stop produciton i think,sooner or later will imposible to get,because,they are all selected handmade.)

**canofan** · 15-11-2008

Somehow, this thread has veered off course.

The SMWs referred to here are switchers "Universal or quasi so". Does anybody have experience with the single band SMW LNB covering the 11.7 to 12.75 Mhz (DRO-10.75-F).

A comparison with the Norsat DRO 4206A would be most useful.
SMW's DROs are not high stability, because their best version is 1mhz.
The Norsat 4206A claims 200khz the 4106a claims 100khz.
High stability DROs are useful for small signal rates transponders and Feeds.

There is no use talking about the PLLs because they should be compared to PLLs of other manufacturers and especially that they are not destined to the consumer TV market.

Any comments on this is welcome.

***Turok*** · 16-11-2008

okay,yes there many lnbs on the market,the we should test,but they are mostly not easy to get!

on the dxcat site,they taking about semi profestional japanese lnbs,that coasts 900€ each,i have old japanese lnb here,from old analog days,where V/ and H were seperatly installed,its called gigasat made in japana,anyone can some say about this brand?

***BombedOne*** · 16-11-2008

Typical S/N ratio for that transistor is in range of 0.5-0.7 dB

**divibi** · 17-11-2008

Originally Posted by Turok

okay,yes there many lnbs on the market,the we should test,but they are mostly not easy to get!

on the dxcat site,they taking about semi profestional japanese lnbs,that coasts 900€ each,i have old japanese lnb here,from old analog days,where V/ and H were seperatly installed,its called gigasat made in japana,anyone can some say about this brand?

Yeah, I would like to know myself, as well. Can you buy them new? Do they still make them? Probably, not anymore?

I think there must be manufacturers who could custom make you an LNB. Maybe, Seavey Engineering?

***Turok*** · 17-11-2008

dont think so,it looks like that they are out of production long time ago!
contact the man from the dx cat website,maybe he can help you!
but 900€ for one lnb,sounds real high price

**canofan** · 15-08-2009

Precision Gold NF 0.5db is selected from NJR6921 just as are Norsat 7000/6600.
Because of the simplified requirement as to DRO stability (1mhz) and the absence of a filter (necessary in VSAT). The Precision Gold NF 0.5db series is cheaper for TV use and promises better SNR.
May be a good contender for the 4000 series from Norsat in simple applications.

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