Badr 4,6. 26 E

Huevos

If your LNB is skewed for the motor it will be fine. If it is skewed for 28E it will be well out as SES Astra satellites all have 7.5 degrees anti-skew.

shamone

futumsch, I have moved the LNB further back and signal has dropped off. It looks like it could be the LNB.


I have been reading about the Inverto black ultra being a good LNB. Is the dark gold just as good?

futumsch

Shamone, i had to move my lnb right way the forward toward the dish as far as it would go. You have to move it for optimum signal level. It was only because of the physical shape of the thing would allow me to move the lnb in the holder far forward enough that i was able to get a better signal. the 0.2 Inverto twin I bought didn't have that much movement. I only discovered that because someone else on this forum had done the same trick with the Dark Gold. It may be that the focus of your Gib is at optimum for your lnb.

And, its been said before, you have to be millimetre perfect, especially on BADR4, I was tweaking the az and el for ages, in quarter turns of a thread to make get as much signal as possible - as well as optimising for the rest of the arc.

As to whether it is a better lnb, I've been trawling this forum for months and there are many threads in this forum and people swear by many different lnbs, but as i've read somewhere here, lnb's are fairly cheap and its best to use trial and error. Here's a good thread I keep as a bookmark: Best LNB On Market.

I see you have the 1.0m Gibertini. I seems fairly popular and that would be my choice of dish. So would be interested how you get one with other lnbs.

Huevos

No way. I used to like the Darkgold until I tried the Black Ultra. My meter has BER and C/N so my experience is not just best guess. In my tests I am yet to find another LNB that can even get within 0.5dB in signal to noise of the Black Ultra in low band. I just cannot overstate how good this LNB is for fringe reception and as you can see from the attachment there is plenty of adjustment to move the LNB in and out.

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Vipersan

..Hi friends
..just thought I'd add my 10cents to the discussion

I logged 253 channels on Badr 26E with dvbviewer using the triax TD110.
I havent checked them all but the MBC mux on 11919 H is showing solid pictures with at around 51%

rgds
VS

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shamone

Well I went ahead and purchased the Inverto Black Ultra. It arrived on Monday but due to work and the rubish weather I have not had a chance to fit until today.


The first thing I noticed was that the LNB was alot heavier than my Icecrypt and that the build quality was top notch. I fitted the LNB and pushed it quite away towards the dish.


Hello I can now get all the MBC channels and the ones which had break up on before have all came in fine. 82% signal and 74% quality. I will test on a few more weak sats and post my results.


As said before the Inverto Black Ultra is a great LNB for fringe reception.

dovercat

I can get Badr 26.5E easily with no problems, signal quality in mid 50s on my reciever which is high enough to be rain proof, lose picture below 40 signal quality. The MBC channels and Dubai One are very good for English language Tv with Arabic subtiles.

My location 51.6North 1.2West
0.5dB Televes Universal Lnb. 57dB gain, polarity discrimination 25dB, local oscillator stability +/-2MHz (on my Televes dish it outperforms so called 0.2 and 0.1dB Lnbs I have)
1mtr Televes dish. 40.5dB gain at 11GHz, beamwidth 1.98 degrees
Moteck SG-2100 DiSEqC motorised mount (toy - piece of junk, plan to replace)
On 6ft high pole in garden next to house. Modern housing estate location with small garden.
Over 10mtrs of cable up side of house, into and across loft, down through ceiling into home cinema room. (cable drops signal strength by about 20pts but does not effect signal quality score).
Manhattan Plaza XT-F Satellite Reciever (got it cheap for reasonably fast blindscan and sensitive tuner with 1-45Msps capability)

satelliteman

If set up correctly and maintained, they will perform perfectly well for years on a suitably sized dish such as an 85cm.

satelliteman . ..... A Detailed DiSEqC Motor Installation Set Up Guide > HERE Quick Reference Guide also > HERE Satellites UK site Advertisers . An Installers Choice ...... Follow us on .

Tivù

Absolutely. Good, inexpensive, utility Motor.

I have one on an 80cm that has never given any trouble at all in years and I have a clone driving a TD110 in a sheltered location.

Kept within spec. as regards weight and wind loading, they are a good bit of kit.

Vipersan

..I totally agree with Gordon ..
I had my SG2100 driving the same TD110 dish for almost 2 years ...and only replaced it recently with a 'dark motor' ..
The SG2100 wasn't scrapped as it was still fully functional ...
..it was simply moved to another installation driving a steel 80cm dish.
A good all round workhorse providing it isn't overloaded - dish wise

rgds

dovercat

"If set up correctly and maintained, they will perform perfectly well for years on a suitably sized dish such as an 85cm." satelliteman

"Absolutely. Good, inexpensive, utility Motor." Tivù

"A good all round workhorse providing it isn't overloaded - dish wise" Vipersan


So much love for moteck. I take it the set up correctly and maintained is to shift the blame for any perceived failings on the user.

For a mesh 85cm dish it maybe fine. But Moteck rates their motor for upto a 1.2mtr solid dish. That is just over twice the surface area of a 85cm dish, and mesh dishes usually suffer 40% less windloading than solid. I certainly would not trust it to hold a 1.2mtr solid dish in an exposed location, without buckling in strong winds, it is mostly aluminium. Moteck make no claim as to resistance to windloading at all, in Moteck land it is always calm skys and if the mount fails it is your problem. Claiming suitablility for larger dishes to get more sales, than it will reliably hold is immoral. The better made similar Stab motor only claims suitability for upto 95cm dish, and the similar SatControl motor only claims upto 85cm dish.
Mine is in a sheltered location with a 1.1mtr dish (I just measured it 113x102cm so 13kg, could not remeber if I ended up buying the 1mtr or 1.1mtr.). Before I replaced my old echostar receiver/positioner I used a 36v motor mount the Jaeger SMR-99G H-H which is built like a tank in comparison to the moteck but only rated for upto a 1.1mtr dish. Previously to that back in the days of analogue I had a polarmount and actuator, in an exposed location with a 1mtr solid dish that mount got buckled despite being massively more robust and sturdy than a moteck sg2100a.

The beam width to -3dB for a 85cm dish is 2.2degrees, for a 1.2mtr dish it is about 1.6degrees, so you need the motor to be more accurate the larger the dish. The moteck claims a count accuracy of 0.15degrees, but the mount also has play in it which means it does not reliably go to the exact same point in the arc, and only has one hall sensor in it so can lose accurate count over time. Mine is no way accurate to 0.15degrees. It is usually fine on powerful satellites as being slightly off alignment lower signal is not a problem, weaker satellites is another matter. I sometimes have to manually tell it to nudge or move the dish to get in alignment with the satellite position. So yeah it works fine if you do not mine manually aligning the dish when it is suppose to be automatic, or diy modifying the mount to remove any play.

It does not make any reference to needing maintaince and claims to have a quiet motor. But due to the play it needs oiling to stop it from vibrating as the motor strains causing the dish to reverberate making a racket. Thats ok if it is garden mounted like mine, but what about on the side of a house. So yeah it works fine if you do not mine a suposedly maintance free mount that actually requires oiling to prevent a product promoted as having a quiet motor acutually making a racket.

It also depends what satellites you want to track since the design is such that it puts most strain on the motor at extremes of the arc. After about three years of use mine will nolonger move beyond 43-45degrees East, as it automatically cuts off the motor, and no it is not due to hardware or software limits being on or obstruction to the dish. I may take it apart and see if I can fix it, but would not describe that as maintance. The thing should last at least 5years preferably decades. For non diy satellite enthusiasts having a dish motor mount replaced and dish setup again, is going to cost alot more than the <£35 a moteck sg2100a costs.

I picked it up for about £25 incl delivery and it works, so I suppose I should not complaint too much. Since I have a meter and setup the dish myself rather than paying someone to do it, I also only have myself to blame for buying the cheapest motorised mount. I could also have a poor example of the motor since despite the best efforts of quality control, you will always get the occasional lemon getting out the door. One unsatisfied customer usually makes alot more noise than a hundred happy ones, so my opinions my be marred by an atypical experience

I noticed you all seem to use the Triax TD110, how big is it and how heavy is it? It seems to be sold as 1.1mtr but according to the Triax flyer it is 100x105cm. My Televes dish is 102x113cm 13kg while I think the moteck would be better suited to a 80cm mesh dish.

Vipersan

Hi Dovercat ...
The TD110 is indeed a relatively heavy steel dish with what I beleve to be exceptionally high gain qualities for its size..
I suspect this is why its much loved ..
It weighs in at around 17kg I believe ...and has given sterling service ..as has the SG2100 ...
In fact the reason the TD110 was taken down and moved to a dark motor ...was actually nothing to do with the motor at all ..
It was in an exposed location being partly above gutter line ...and constant buffeting by wind actually damaged the dish clamp where dish meets motor stubb ..
I saw the opportunity to repair the dish and fit in a slightly more sheltered location on the same wall ..but further over and below the gutter line...and with a new motor ..which claimed better support for dishes over 1mtre..
The sg2100 was duly greased and pressed back into service driving a steel 80cm dish..
During this time the motek motor was examined and found to have almost zero play ..even after severe wind loading ...and still tracks the arc perfectly from 60E to 60W ..
rgds
VS

Tivù

No oil or grease ever used on either of mine.

bigtee

I got a Moteck SG2100 driving a 1m Orbital dish --- no problems.

Robbo

The TD110 is approx 110cm high by about 102cm wide. Got one on my TM2300 motor, essentially the same as the Moteck. Its been fine so far, but only had it less than a year.

dovercat

Sounds like my Moteck sg2100a is an atypical lemon then, just my bad luck. It had play from new, and has developed a problem young about 3years old.
Does anyone else have problems with it not reliably and accurately to 0.15 degrees going to its stored positions? Maybe that is a problem with my receiver?

I do think the Moteck looks and weighs like a toy in comparison to old 36v motorized mounts, considering how heavy duty they are in comparison. Maybe they were overkill or designed to withstand a once in a lifetime storm. The wind loading on a 1.2mtr solid dish in say gale force winds is massive. I have had a 1mtr solid dish in an exposed location when gales were toppling trees, chimney stacks etc.. That buckled my old polar mount, with this mount I would worry it might snap.

Still it was alot cheaper and the motor is quieter than the old 36v Jaegar smr-g99 h-h it replaced.

So the Triax is marginally smaller and a bit heavier than the Televes.
I went with the Televes over the Triax because I could get it significantly cheaper and figured the most important factors with a dish are size and build material. Triax quote gain at 11.7GHz while Televes use 11GHz, since I believe gain increases with frequency this makes the specs not directly compariable, does anyone know how to convert gain from 11GHz to 11.7GHz.

You also seem to use Lnbs that are not dish specific, I found the Televes 0.5dB better suited to the Televes dish than other 0.1-0.2dB Lnbs I had lying around. I thought having a good Lnb-Dish match and tweaking the Lnb position for best signal quality would yield about as good as I would get. How much improvement do you get with these Lnbs since the specs are not very reliable/revealing. I was under the impression that a Lnb upgrade was generally not worthwhile as it is generally only equivelent to increasing dish size by a few cm. So only worthwhile if their are channels right on the borderline of having a reliable-stable picture.

dovercat

Hmm the 1mtr andrews is 106x116cm, the 1mtr prodelin 105x115cm, the 1.1mtr triax 102x110cm. My televes is 102x113cm so it might be the 1mtr Televes afterall. Anyone know what dimension the Televes 1mtr and 1.1mtr dishes are?

dovercat

Thinking about it my Televes dish 102x113cm must be the 1mtr Televes. Since dish size dictates beamwidth and that is determined by the width of the dish on a offset dish. So when the Triax TD110 102x110cm is sold as a 1.1mtr dish it is being mis-sold because the beamwidth is not correct for a 1.1mtr dish. Beamwidth being the most important aspect of a dish along with Gain, as beamwidth determines how much noise it can elimante.

Robbo

Yes the Triax is mis-described by the manufacturer as a 110cm dish, nothing new there then, it makes it seem bigger than it is to sell it.

Tivù

The only truly effective way to match an LNB to a Dish is empirically: It is rare to be able to get hold of full specs for LNBs that give plots of their various characteristics vs. frequency.

Figures for eg Noise, Gain, Cross-polarisation rejection are normally "headline" figures applying only to a small part of the band.

Many of us have a small selection of LNBs of different manufacture and spec. and just fit what appears to work best for our particular needs.

Huevos

It's a linear relationship between frequency and dish size. For example, if a 1 metre dish @ 11700 MHz = 39.7 dB if we dropped to 11000 MHz to remain at the same gain you would need to increase the dish face to ((1m*1m)*(11700/11000))^0.5 = 1.03 metres (horizontally). This is a change in dish capture area of 6.3%, which equates to about 0.16 dB.

dovercat

Thanks so if manufactures specs are to believed. Triax TD110 (102x110cm) gain 40.2dB at 11.7GHz is equivelent to about 40.04dB at 11GHz, while the Televes 1mtr (102x113cm) at 11GHz claims a gain of 40.5dB.
So in theory the Televes is marginally better than the Triax has anyone had both dishes to compare in the real world.

Huevos

Matching the feedhorn to the dish is important of course but having a good LNB attached to that feed is very important too. For example a Black Ultra, in my experience, on an offset dish out performs any other LNB I've tested when it comes to digging weak signals out of the noise. Most can't come within 0.5dB signal to noise which is a huge amount.
Well herein lies the problem; those figures are the external dimensions of the dish, not the capture area.

Personally I doubt if someone set up and aligned a sample of each of those dishes and then handed the two cables to someone who didn't know which was which (blind test) that that person would notice any difference even with very good test equipment.

dovercat

Then again the Televes only has about a 2-3% larger surface area than the Triax and you would only realize that with a well matched Lnb. Since they both have the same F/D relationship - shape, unless they have markedly different efficiency scores, which I doubt, that is much too little difference in surface area to give a 0.46dB difference in gain. I assume it should give something more in the region of a 0.08dB difference.
So the manufactures specs are probably still not comparable, do they use a industry standardized measuring protocol.

dovercat

Since UK dealers stock Inverto lnbs, but not yet the Black Ultra, I will pick one up in January if UK dealers start to stock them. I expect there is quite a bit of variability between individual Lnbs and the Lnb to Dish matching has a significant effect. So what is a great Lnb for one person might not be so great for someone else. But it is cheap so I will give it a go.