What was wrong with the Betamax format?

***Saturlight*** · 12-08-2006

It was supposed to be a better picture quality than VHS. I recall a "war" between the two formats commencing around 1981, and VHS won. It wasn't just the size of the plastic case in which the tape was, the tape was different, too.

I know that sounds stupid, but I recall as a kid, swapping Betamax tape into a VHS case, and it didn't work. Well it did in a way, but it was running backwards and the picture flickered, and it was in black and white. And don't worry, I didn't put the tape in backwards, coz I tried it both ways and it still didn't work.

Any techos know what was the actual difference technically betwen Betamax tape and VHS. And what is the difference between VHS tape and the thick tape which Dr Who was recorded on in the 1960s, long before personal video recorders were available.

Thanks.

spiney · 12-08-2006

Video recording was invented at Ampex Corporation in early 1950s, by an enginering team including Ray Dolby, later famous for his noise reduction systems.

All analogue systems used fm modulation, and a rotating drum with heads that moved very quickly across the tape, although the tape reels themselves moved slowly.

The original system was quadruplex (4 heads, each scanning just 17 lines!), using 2 inch tape, with tape decks the size of a washing machine. Then came helical scan with 1 inch tape, and and table top sized machines.

(Current broadcast video recorders are digital, and use cartridges instead of tape reels).

Sony Umatic was around in late 1960s, then the first domestic machine was the Philips N1500, around 1973, surviving until mid 80s, but max play time was only 1 hour, so couldn't compete with the other formats.

VHS came out first, so was the most widespread format. Eventually, commercial companies refused to produce pre recorded tapes in both VHS and BETAMAX formats, so just did VHS, which hastened Betamax's demise. Also, Betamax had a shorter playing time.

Both systems were similar, modulating an fm carrier with the video Y signal, and using "colour under". Betamax used different frequncies and slightly higher tape speed, but the difference was marginal.

A bit later Philips/Grundig V2000 format came out, but had a very short lifetime!

Here's a "quick tour" of the main formats:
http://www.totalrewind.org/mainhall.htm .

Here's the first ever video recorder:
http://www.labguysworld.com/VTR-People.htm .

Here's the original huge quadruplex machines, and some smaller 1 inch, and a current digital D2 for comparison:
http://www.lionlmb.org/quad/tour.html .

Here's a history of the - now gone! - BBC VT department, showing how broadcast video recording changed over 40 years (great tech nostalgia website):
http://www.vtoldboys.com/ .

Here's the VHS/Beta "format war":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCR.

Some tech info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%22_Quadruplex_videotape .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%22_type_C_videotape .

The VHS/Beta difference is shown in table at bottom of this page, you can see this is a mere 10 lines resolution! Due to a slightly wider fm deviation.
http://www.ee.washington.edu/consele...hn/vcr/vcr.htm .

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

WHAT A BRILLIANT REPLY AND LINKS!!

So, the likes of Dr Who, Dad's Army, The Likely Lads (not the "Return" of the Likely Lads), old Top of the Pops, were recorded on Quad tape? And that's what people find in skips, lofts, and garden sheds, when recovering old "lost" TV gems...

There's a lot to take in, but it's fascinating!

There are still a lot of lost Dr Who episodes out there on old tape. I find it exciting that the computer technology is there to revive ancient, grainy shows, and make them digital.

So broadcast tape is never used now? So what's the difference between broadcast digital and personal home recordable DVDs...obviously the quality is better..

Cheers.

spiney · 13-08-2006

All 1960s stuff, including Dr Who, was on qaudruplex, slowly replaced by C format from early 1970s, for timescale see above BBC link.

Qadruplex was "solid", the tape is robust, a lot of them have lasted well! Trouble is, there aren't many machines left, and they're full of analogue circuitry that constantly needs tweaking.

Later formats are electronically more stable, but the tape is more fragile ...

Current digital recorders are mostly the "D" series, varying hugely in capabilities, a good comparison guide is:
http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/256atab.htm .
http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262ctab.htm .
http://www.theiabm.org/pdffiles/video.formats.pdf .

Tape archiving:
http://www.amianet.org/publication/r...eelerVideo.pdf .

When you see a camera crew filming somebody in the street, for a news story, that's usually Digital Betacam.

***2cvbloke*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by spiney

When you see a camera crew filming somebody in the street, for a news story, that's usually Digital Betacam.

Or DigiBeta as it's known in the industry...

I have a blank Scotch Betamax tape at home, so I need to get myself a Betamax recorder (Sony preferably, I would love an SL-F1UB (portable Beta recorder, has a seperate tuner, see pic), found one in a skip once but it's back end was smashed and it was a write off...

), and yes, I just said I need a recorder just cos I have a tape...

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

Thanks, Spiney, where ya learn all this!?

From the links, yes, but you must have learn a fair portion of it earlier...

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by 2cvbloke

Or DigiBeta as it's known in the industry...

I have a blank Scotch Betamax tape at home, so I need to get myself a Betamax recorder (Sony preferably, I would love an SL-F1UB (portable Beta recorder, has a seperate tuner, see pic), found one in a skip once but it's back end was smashed and it was a write off... ), and yes, I just said I need a recorder just cos I have a tape...

I had a Betamax recorder that weighed a ton, but I threw (or should I say, fork-lifted) it out in about 1992 after keeping it 12 years. I wish I had it now, I could show it on the antiques roadshow.

***2cvbloke*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by Saturlight

I had a Betamax recorder that weighed a ton, but I threw (or should I say, fork-lifted) it out in about 1992 after keeping it 12 years. I wish I had it now, I could show it on the antiques roadshow.

I think that was one of the things that put people off betamax, the machines were built like tanks and weighed about the same!!! Even that SL-F1UP I pulled from the skip had some weight to it, and that was a small recorder!!!

There's always one antique guaranteed to be on the Antiques Roadshow, and it's Blue....

spiney · 13-08-2006

http://www.palsite.com/home.html .

***2cvbloke*** · 13-08-2006

I found one of these too with the SL-F1UB recorder, the viewfinder rubber eye thing was missing and there was no image (I rewired the cable into seperate feeds, power, video and audio), well, there was and image of somesort as I could see changes in the brightness of the TV screen as I moved the camera about, but it was no good, didn't work at all (and the zoom was knackered, the focus jammed, and the lens had a chip out of it), shame though as it was a nice sized camera (for it's age)...

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

When they sold old Dr Who episodes to places like Egypt, in the mid 1960s, do you think Egypt were using the same record and playback system as the BBC, or do you think it had to be converted.

I know they sold a few episodes to Egypt, because a grainy episode with no sound was recovered then in the mid 1990s. And that's another thing, why should the sound be missing, unless they dubbed it, but I would have thought, subtitles would have been easily.

It bet it's near impossible to remove Egypitian subtitles from an old Doctor Who story.

Sorry I keep mentioning Dr Who, but it's the benchamrk. There were others thrown in the Beeb skip:

All Gas and Gaitors
Juke Box Jury
Most of the Top of the Pops
Doomwatch
Nationwide
Panarama
The Cilla Black Show (that deserved it!

)
The Cliff Richard Show (that deserved it, too)
A Night In With Perry Como.

***2cvbloke*** · 13-08-2006

I'd have thought they would have sold them as they were as the Egyptians had the right equipment, or maybe the BBC sold them the equipment too, maybe they copied it onto film instead, I guess the best thing to do would to be to ask the BBC....

I just found a sony SL-F1UB, but it's been bid on right out of my price range...

spiney · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by Saturlight

Dr Who, but it's the benchamrk. There were others thrown in the Beeb skip:

All Gas and Gaitors
Juke Box Jury
Most of the Top of the Pops
Doomwatch
Nationwide
Panarama
The Cilla Black Show (that deserved it! )
The Cliff Richard Show (that deserved it, too)
A Night In With Perry Como.

Couldn't agree more! And let's not forget Out of the Unknown, This Man Craig, Adam Adament, The Expert, ....

Gaiters was the Father Ted of it's day. At least it partly survives in a radio version, thought Newt isn't Derek Nimmo, alas.

Doomwatch was Kit (cybermen) Pedlar's eco disaster series, very prescient. Can vividly remember the 1st episode, where all the plastic parts of an aeroplane in flight start dissolving, terrifying (based on the novel Mutant 59, which I've got somewher ....)

I think Dr Who was supplied as requested, all formats. At least one story has been restored from monochrome 16mm film, then superimposing the colour from a USA home video!
http://www.restoration-team.co.uk/ .

There's always hope, eg some "lost" Hancocks have recently turned up ....

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by spiney

Couldn't agree more! And let's not forget Out of the Unknown, This Man Craig, Adam Adament, The Expert, ....

Gaiters was the Father Ted of it's day. At least it partly survives in a radio version, thought Newt isn't Derek Nimmo, alas.

Doomwatch was Kit (cybermen) Pedlar's eco disaster series, very prescient. Can vividly remember the 1st episode, where all the plastic parts of an aeroplane in flight start dissolving, terrifying (based on the novel Mutant 59, which I've got somewher ....)

I think Dr Who was supplied as requested, all formats. At least one story has been restored from monochrome 16mm film, then superimposing the colour from a USA home video!
http://www.restoration-team.co.uk/ .

There's always hope, eg some "lost" Hancocks have recently turned up ....

The colour print of Terror of the Autons was destroyed, leaving a grainy black and white version; but then restored in about 1991, with dodgy colour, all reds, greens and blues. It didn't look like true colour, because I bought the "collectable" video in 1992.

Since then I think Terror of the Autons has been properly colourised digitally and released on DVD. Least I still have the 14 year old video version; I relish that, it's so antique by today's standards...no offence.

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by 2cvbloke

I'd have thought they would have sold them as they were as the Egyptians had the right equipment, or maybe the BBC sold them the equipment too, maybe they copied it onto film instead, I guess the best thing to do would to be to ask the BBC....

I just found a sony SL-F1UB, but it's been bid on right out of my price range...

What on that bidding site, err...hey, I cannot remember the name!!

***2cvbloke*** · 13-08-2006

Originally Posted by Saturlight

What on that bidding site, err...hey, I cannot remember the name!!

Fleecebay??

***Saturlight*** · 13-08-2006

Yeah, I remember some mug paying $50 for an old piece of toast. Loony, more sense than money.

I was gonna sell my finished bog roll on there, but I wanna make sure I get a fair price for it, say starting the bidding at $10 would be something...

spiney · 14-08-2006

That's the one where you see Jon Pertwee taking a shower, the only time I can recall anything of the sort in Dr Who. In fact, unusual in any tv programme .....

***Saturlight*** · 14-08-2006

Yeah, no-one goes to the loo, showers or shaves in sci-fi shows. And they never change their clothes.

I once recall Tom Baker wearing the same garb all season. And he never washed or shaved - must have had his face hair on sonic time hold, or something...

***2cvbloke*** · 15-08-2006

Originally Posted by Saturlight

Yeah, no-one goes to the loo, showers or shaves in sci-fi shows. And they never change their clothes.

They do in Star Trek...

***2cvbloke*** · 25-08-2006

I want!!! I WANT!!!

Click

**Channel Hopper** · 26-08-2006

Originally Posted by Saturlight

Yeah, no-one goes to the loo, showers or shaves in sci-fi shows. And they never change their clothes.

I once recall Tom Baker wearing the same garb all season. And he never washed or shaved - must have had his face hair on sonic time hold, or something...

er......time paradox
http://www.viz.co.uk/games_viz/downloads/docpoo1.exe

spiney · 26-08-2006

Now going off topic, I'd like to know how many times the BBC can repeat the recent Dr Whos, without us all asking for our license fee money back! Seems BBC3 is now stuck in an endless time-loop, something the Dr himself would have fixed very quickly!

**Channel Hopper** · 26-08-2006

Originally Posted by spiney

Seems BBC3 is now stuck in an endless time-loop, something the Dr himself would have fixed very quickly!

[Conspiracy hat on]

It might well explain some of the episodes that went missing, of course only somebody with a TARDIS could erase originals and copies completly from the fabric of the universe.
[Conspiracy hat off]

[Pedant hat on]

One thing I couldn't get to grips with was how the doctor was able to meet up with himself as a previous incarnation, without going up in a puff of smoke.

[Pedant hat off]

spiney · 26-08-2006

(puts on nice Ascot ladies' hat with lots of flowers round brim).

Well, I'd say it's mainly about money.

(hat off, now puts brown paper bag over head).

You're asking for "script consistancy"? In fact, any sort of coherence at all? Then, why use Russell T Davies?

(down into nuclear bunker, hiding, also pedant hat on .... ).

Earlier, in "the two doctors", Dr no 2 and Jamie freely discuss "the time lords", but in fact "earlier Jamie" knew nothing about them, oops ......

(stays in bunker, still hiding .......).

As far as I'm concerned, Dr Who has now been completely wrecked, it's become worthless rubbish.