poor Freesat in Alicante, Costa Blanca 2.4m Fortec Star dish

**Robbo** · 04-01-2009

Originally Posted by pedro2000uk

So what's wrong with this picture... answers on a postcard to ...

_http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=97081&TabID=1&QV=Y&C=EBook&U= Ecat

oh, and I like this ...

_http://ebook.maplin.co.uk/maplinlargeebook/enter.html?page=310

try clicking on the c120 with feed horn...

I wonder if that's why 4 fortec star 2.4s have ....invacom lnbfs...

Yes, I noticed both of those errors, I asked them the qustion on their website, though for some reason they have not replied, nor displayed my question.

pedro2000uk · 05-01-2009

That's even worse ... they should refund and compensate God knows how many who have bought that dish or the 1.8 and been given a very expensive LNB that reduces the dish size to about the size of one of the panels and then taken them back to Spain with them.

***snap*** · 07-01-2009

Only the third picture shows the correct LNB and feedhorn in use, the others are completely wrong.
No real surprise given the number of cowboy 'installers' on the Costas. There's widespread disregard of good practice amongst these guys, who prey on the hapless Brits on the Spanish coasts. They will frequently claim that 'Portugese' dishes are the best for Spain and plant info on forums and the web justifying their crappy methods.

Many misguided people intent on DIY buy FortecStar 2.4m from Maplin, local papers or Ebay

and then wonder why they don't work.

The message on the Costas ought to be loud and clear: never buy a FortecStar dish, be highly sceptical about anything on the Maplin website, show the cowboys the door, insist on a decent quality installation (but be prepared to pay for it)

pedro2000uk · 07-01-2009

We've seen people buying them in the UK and getting the wrong lnb(f) ready to take over to Spain... a colleague tried tell a guy about the build of the 2.4s and to at least get the right lnb/feedhorn...

....he thinks he still bought the wrong one.. a very over priced lnbf..

why?..

.... probably because most of the ones he'd seen around his place in Spain had the same dish with the wrong lnbf on them....

.... the sheep factor again... if everyone is doing it .....it must be right... right?

er..no....

neoandy · 08-01-2009

Hi all, i have been reading this post and im thinking twise before gettin maplins dish/lbn !!
I live about 20k north from ALC and i was thinkin on gettin this stuff for watching freesat, acording to whot i have read, it is gonna be a waste of money....can anybody explain please i if is a good idea to get all this and try to do it myself? As you have realized i wanna do it on my own, as a hobby but i do not want wife to smash my head by spending the money and then not bein able to get it right!
Please somebody help me !

What i wanted from Maplin :

_http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=48743

_http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=97081

Is this ok to be assambled and used near benidorm to get freesat ?

Many thanks in advance.

neoandy · 08-01-2009

Hi all I am new in all this wonderful world of satellites and I am about to get the same dish from the same online shop _www.maplin.co.uk..... and what is worse .... i live near Alicante too!!!!
Colud anybody advise which is the right lbn for this dish of 2.4 meters fortec Star, and if maplin has it ?
I has been really instructive reading all your posts and i know that i am in the right place to learn and be advised....

Many thanks in advance
Andy

pedro2000uk · 08-01-2009

you could have an rtft fault...

***snap*** · 08-01-2009

neoandy:
Short answer- don't!
This is the dish which has caused more queries to satellite help boards than any other. The queries usually start 'I have a petallised dish which is not bringing the channels I hoped' or "Why can't I get any BBC or ITV" .

The LNB Maplin say is for prime focus is nothing of the kind. It is an Invacom Single SNH-031.
It won't work properly as it is made for offset (oval shape) dishes.
Maplin used to sell this dish with a C120 LNB and prime focus feedhorn, but now none of the LNBs they sell is suitable.

Just avoid and buy something better. Bear in mind the most common dish in the Costa Blanca is the so- called 'Portugese' dish. These are made by Famaval in Portugal and are sold by Tecatel in Spain. They are really mediocre.

For best performance buy a professional -quality dish such as a Prodelin or ASC signal (formerly ChannelMaster/Andrew)

**Robbo** · 09-01-2009

Of course, if you buy a quality dish, and spend loads of euros on it, but can't get it to work, you would still be ableto get a pro' in to align and set it up for you. Whereas if you got the maplin cheapo, I imagine that it would be a waste.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

The 2.4m Andrews ASC is about £2500-3000 plus floor mount/pole... so you can see the attraction of the £170 2.4m or £100 1.8m.

If you go for a used one, the face on the ASC 2.4m is in two halves and even with the price 'they' are often put together wrong. If they are bolted up twisted, the shape is pulled out, in the hot Med sun, that could be permanent even if a professional comes along afterwards to sort it out.. it may not be possible and has thermally reset in the hot sun. The tolerance is 0.25 inch or .6mm (max out) on the 2.4m's seam. The bolting procedure and torque settings are critical too, and if that's not followed either that can spoil a dish too. Very few have the equipment to test the parabola's tolerance of dishes that size.

I think you could set up a 1.8 fs accurately and then strengthen it, with the right lnb/feed horn you'd match the C M.

not sure about doing the same with the 2.4 fortec star... turning it into a decent dish could cost too much.

neoandy · 09-01-2009

Many thanks for that!! nap could you tell me where in spain i can get this ChannelMaster/ Andrew.
And would not be an idea if i wanna try the dish....gettin a suttable LBN for it ??
In this case which would be the one? (model and brand ), i already know that u said the right one for this dished is c120 invacom, i just wanted to conform, and if it´s like that could you tell me where i can get it ?

Many thanks in advance great help on this ......

neoandy · 09-01-2009

Thanks Pedro2000uk Robo and snap, this is what i wanted, the professional and expirienced opinion, many many thanks, so eveybody against the petallised "Fortec Arghh" dish that Maplin has on offer?
There is no hope for it ?
Or with the right LNB could it be useful for the freesat channels ?
Remember that i am not a professional I want to do it as a hobby at home for the wife.
Snap i checked the web of Tecatel and they sale all the lbns mentioned in this forum, could it be an idea, gettin the LNB from Tecatel and the "Fortec Arghh"dish ??

Cheers
Andy.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

Many thanks for that!! nap could you tell me where in spain i can get this ChannelMaster/ Andrew.
And would not be an idea if i wanna try the dish....gettin a suttable LBN for it ??
In this case which would be the one? (model and brand ), i already know that u said the right one for this dished is c120 invacom, i just wanted to conform, and if it´s like that could you tell me where i can get it ?

Many thanks in advance great help on this ......

The ASC 2.4m & 1.8m's are offset dishes so you can use any good LNBf on them or a C120 (invacom C120 quad has a good reputation) with the matched feed horn for offset dishes... (not the feed horn for prime focus dishes!).

If you do use an LNBf you will need to make sure it can get close enough to the dish face for the focal point... either using a long necked lnbf or modify the holder... some LNBfs can do very well.

***snap*** · 09-01-2009

Have to disagree strongly with you Pedro on the last point, a LNBF (one- piece LNB) will never perform anything like as well as a good C120 LNB, for Astra 2D reception (this is what drives the need for large dishes) a LNBF will disappoint. A 1.8m fortecstar dish will never come anything like a 1.8m ASC/Andrew dish for performance. It's not just build quality, a 1.8m prime focus will always have lower gain than a 1.8m offset dish, owing to the laws of physics.

Invacom C120 Quad has been proven many times to give the best BBC & ITV reception on dishes larger that 120 cm. I've done many tests myself, and posted the results on the forum.
I have a an interest in a BBC & Sky installation business in Madrid. My partner there will not use anything other than:
ASC/Andrew 180 dish, Invacom Quad C120 model QDF-031 and a ChannelMaster feedhorn.

There have been reports of people getting all BBC channels in the Alicante region on this dish.
I wouldn't recommend anyone getting a 240 cm ASC/Andrew or Prodelin owing to the cost.

ASC dishes are very easy to assemble and set up. They are so well- made they never distort in very high temperatures- in effect they are virtually indestructible. Prodelin dishes are very similar.

A number of places sell ASC/Andrew (Formerly channelMaster):
ASC/Andrew from Demon multimedia (you may have to wait)
_http://www.ciberland.com/
Prodelin from Tecatel (contact them to find a local dealer)
_http://www.tecatel.com/productoX.php?idp=816
Invacom LNB (currently in short supply) and Prodelin from Antnet Digital
_http://www.antnetdigital.com/en/
Feedhorn from:-
_http://www.satellitesuperstore.com/feedhorn.htm

Prodelin main page, e-mail to request more local dealers:
_http://www.tripointglobal.com/antennas.php

neoandy · 09-01-2009

Right guys, thanks again for all this info, that i need to use the technical dictionary to understand ( :P ) jejejeje.....
Anyway so if i go for the "Fortec Argh" and i get it correctly build up, getting an invacom c120, with the feedhorn that it comes (as both of you agreed that is the right one for a Prime Focus Dish) this should be then a matter of adjustement and presition.....
However, Snap said that the OffSet Dishes has betta results for the reception on BBC/ITV ( Freesat) channels in the Alicante Area.....could anybody tell me which is the most suitable dish (prime focus, off set ) type and size for the area i am (remember i am Near to benidorm in Alicante (latitude 38.5903° longitude -0.1311°)......
I understand this is not a easy goal to achieve but i am still stuborn and short of money enough to believe that this dish is complete rubish .....(mostly short of money jejejejeje).

Thanks and looking forward for your reply
Andy.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

I did say the Invacom's got the reputation there.. but we've beaten c120s enough times to know it's not that cut and dry... although not on 2d there but 7w h's here (similar problems.... but not the same I agree). but I'd never say never ( well, apart from just then). there's just too many making lnbfs.... and too many reports of beating that feed horn on their own dish..

What do you think of the issue of the focal point that most LNBfs get on that dish without serious modifying and the F/D ratio you'll get using an LNBf.... that's not any easy mod' either to get right with those arms (unless you have the tx arm).

The internals/spec on an Invacom quad LNBf v C120 are identical.

Feed horn & feed support arms shadow are pretty low compared to the surface area of a 1.8m...

as a percentage of surface area, what do you think it is including the feed horn & arms......

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

Right guys, thanks again for all this info, that i need to use the technical dictionary to understand ( :P ) jejejeje.....
Anyway so if i go for the "Fortec Argh" and i get it correctly build up, getting an invacom c120, with the feedhorn that it comes (as both of you agreed that is the right one for a Prime Focus Dish) this should be then a matter of adjustement and presition.....
However, Snap said that the OffSet Dishes has betta results for the reception on BBC/ITV ( Freesat) channels in the Alicante Area.....could anybody tell me which is the most suitable dish (prime focus, off set ) type and size for the area i am (remember i am Near to benidorm in Alicante (latitude 38.5903° longitude -0.1311°)......
I understand this is not a easy goal to achieve but i am still stuborn and short of money enough to believe that this dish is complete rubish .....(mostly short of money jejejejeje).

Thanks and looking forward for your reply
Andy.

The differences between offset dishes and prime focus dishes are argued quite a bit.

One issue is the lnb & support arms cast a 'shadow' on the prime focus dish so nicking a bit of your signal where the offset doesn't. But the area is usually very, very small as a percentage on larger dishes.

Also, the offset dish sits more upright than the prime focus for 28e in Spain. With the strong winds coming off the med in winter the offset gets it more 'head on' and especially with the webbed back of the ASC's which trap wind (... and we all know the problems with trapped wind).
The ASC's are made from a composite of resin/ fibre glass and can 'flex'. They spring back ...but will lose some signal on dish distortion and temp' forcing 'off sat'.

A prime focus is far more shallow horizontally getting the wind more from the side and it's edge can instead cut the wind blowing through it & can be sheltered by a fairly low wall round a patio.

neoandy · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by pedro2000uk

The differences between offset dishes and prime focus dishes are argued quite a bit.

One issue is the lnb & support arms cast a 'shadow' on the prime focus dish so nicking a bit of your signal where the offset doesn't. But the area is usually very, very small as a percentage on larger dishes.

Also, the offset dish sits more upright than the prime focus for 28e in Spain. With the strong winds coming off the med in winter the offset gets it more 'head on' and especially with the webbed back of the ASC's which trap wind (... and we all know the problems with trapped wind).
The ASC's are made from a composite of resin/ fibre glass and can 'flex'. They spring back ...but will lose some signal on dish distortion and temp' forcing 'off sat'.

A prime focus is far more shallow horizontally getting the wind more from the side and it's edge can instead cut the wind blowing through it & can be sheltered by a fairly low wall round a patio.

Many thanks Pedro, so the answer as you said is a matter of preferences, with both dish systems you can get the "bloody" 28.2E, you are making your point to say that a determinant agent as wind can afect the reception, as in any system with any dish, thanks for that tip.

Will the dish lose signal strenth or quality by being a segments dish rather than being one piece?
Can we do not solve this problem by usng any fixing material as construction or pipes ones ?
And finally paceing the dish on the ground, with no obstacle pointing south, and being covered by a wall behind and n the side, will this not stop the wind by swingin the dish and moving it form its original point?

Many thanks .

PS: So in a 2.4 meter dish prime focus, it won´t matter the lost of signal, as is a big dish.

Cheers

Andy.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

you can have walls all round sheltering the dish.. so long as the angle up to the satellite is clear.. not as difficult with a prime focus..

you do lose on the joins.... another issue.. although there is one big join on the 2.4 CM...it's not a lot but it all adds up. you could put some ali tape or something over the join... but it might look awful..

btw..

both the 1.8 & 2.4 asc's are bigger in surface area than FS's... they are oval and their width is 1.8 / 2.4 but taller ... where as a prime focus is circular but the view by the lnb is considered the same (by some) in offset (it sees a circle of 1.8 or 2.4). I disagree to that as well as both the 1.8 & 2.4 (& 1.2 etc...) are all larger in catchment area that is reflected into the lnb.

We measure diagonally always to calc surface area .. ..You need to compare apples with apples.... surface area v surface area..

Anyway, it's usually a price thing.. £170 v £2600-£3000+ etc... but if one was to choose a Fortec Star ... it has to be put together very accurately, very carefully so not to buckle it ... use the right lnb /feed horn ...

......and when it's 100% .... seriously strengthen it with some diy engineering.

***snap*** · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

However, Snap said that the OffSet Dishes has betta results for the reception on BBC/ITV ( Freesat) channels in the Alicante Area.....could anybody tell me which is the most suitable dish (prime focus, off set ) type and size for the area i am (remember i am Near to benidorm in Alicante (latitude 38.5903° longitude -0.1311°)......
I understand this is not a easy goal to achieve but i am still stuborn and short of money enough to believe that this dish is complete rubish .....(mostly short of money jejejejeje).

Thanks and looking forward for your reply
Andy.

Andy-
If money is tight you had better go for the Famaval (Portugese) and fit it with an Invacom quad and Invacom ADF-120 feedhorn (both available directly from Invacom)
Some facts which are indisputable:-
•Prime focus dishes HAVE to be fitted with a C120 LNB and adjustable prime focus feedhorn. They should NEVER be fitted with a LNBF or one- piece LNB.
•Installers in your area typically fit prime focus dishes with a LNBF as they are cheap (for the installer- typically less than 10 euros for a Sharp or similar)
•Offset dishes have higher gain than prime focus of the same size. The reasons are complicated but they relate to laws of nature not opinion.
•All dishes larger than 120 cm work better with a C120 LNB and feedhorn matched to the dish, particularly for BBC & ITV (Astra 2D). Dishes larger than 120cm will work with a LNBF fitted, but never to their full potential.

The idea that ASC signal dishes 'flex in the wind' is one of the more ridiculous things I have read for some time. They are highly stable and have the strongest support structure of any dish made for direct to home reception.. It's FortecStar and other metal sheet dishes such as Famaval that flex in the wind: one strong gust can destroy a FortecStar 2.4m.

neoandy · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by pedro2000uk

you can have walls all round sheltering the dish.. so long as the angle up to the satellite is clear.. not as difficult with a prime focus..

you do lose on the joins.... another issue.. although there is one big join on the 2.4 CM...it's not a lot but it all adds up. you could put some ali tape or something over the join... but it might look awful..

btw..

both the 1.8 & 2.4 asc's are bigger in surface area than FS's... they are oval and their width is 1.8 / 2.4 but taller ... where as a prime focus is circular but the view by the lnb is considered the same (by some) in offset (it sees a circle of 1.8 or 2.4). I disagree to that as well as both the 1.8 & 2.4 (& 1.2 etc...) are all larger in catchment area that is reflected into the lnb.

We measure diagonally always to calc surface area .. ..You need to compare apples with apples.... surface area v surface area..

Anyway, it's usually a price thing.. £170 v £2600-£3000+ etc... but if one was to choose a Fortec Star ... it has to be put together very accurately, very carefully so not to buckle it ... use the right lnb /feed horn ...

......and when it's 100% .... seriously strengthen it with some diy engineering.

Many thanks again
About the join u said some tapes can be used over them ....does not afect the signal strenght if the tape is put over the dish in the reflecition area ?

Can the joins not be filled up with any kind of silicone material ( transparent for ex) ?

Cheers
Andy.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

You can flex a 2.4 CM with you arm, especially on the top panel... that's not to say they are like a floppy fortec, there is a lot of design in the face and they flex back, but they are not 100% rigid.. they are plastic with bracing and do 'give'.. they would have to be solid concrete not to give in a very strong winds at that size.. the bigger the dish the more they have to take.. and they are not really made for dth ..

as far as CM build quality - the face is good.. but I think the az/el is very poor. The crude threaded bar for the elevation and that daft azi fine adjuster... all rough dipped ... no bushes to take the slop on those holes.

pedro2000uk · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

Many thanks again
About the join u said some tapes can be used over them ....does not afect the signal strenght if the tape is put over the dish in the reflecition area ?

Can the joins not be filled up with any kind of silicone material ( transparent for ex) ?

Cheers
Andy.

I think tape would look awful... I'm not aware of any silicone material that reflects microwave signals, but if the joins were siloconed you'd add some much needed extra strength but you'd have to make sure it was lined up 100% before it went off and you'd need a lot more strengthening than just that ....starting with remaking that er.. patio mount... bracing the panels .... a better elevation adjustment....

**divibi** · 09-01-2009

Originally Posted by pedro2000uk

The tolerance is 0.25 inch or .6mm (max out) on the 2.4m's seam. The bolting procedure and torque settings are critical too, and if that's not followed either that can spoil a dish too. Very few have the equipment to test the parabola's tolerance of dishes that size.

Hi pedro2000uk

What equipment do you have in mind for testing the parabolic shape on dishes? Is it something 'optometric' or 'laser' based, that only small sizes can be done? I would love to know.

pedro2000uk · 10-01-2009

Originally Posted by divibi

Hi pedro2000uk

What equipment do you have in mind for testing the parabolic shape on dishes? Is it something 'optometric' or 'laser' based, that only small sizes can be done? I would love to know.

That sounds like a new thread....

How do you test the parabolic shape of an offset dish...

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