poor Freesat in Alicante, Costa Blanca 2.4m Fortec Star dish

***snap*** · 10-01-2009

Forget all about getting a FortecStar 2.4m to perform well- they just are not built well enough. The sheet material is so thin that it distorts easily.
I doubt the orginal poster and Neoandy are considering buying a 2.4 m ASC or Prodelin, so it's a bit a waste to talk about these. One-piece ASC or Prodelin 1.8m dishes may be in their price range and these are the best on the market by a long way. They do not distort in high winds by even a small amount. A well set up 1.8m dish of this type will out perform a FortecStar 2.4m easily, and this should be borne in mind above all the previous comments.

Offset dishes are more efficient than prime focus of the same size because:
- the larger surface area, as Pedro says, a 1.8m ASC is 1.9m high.
A prime focus '1.9m' Famaval is actually 1.79m x 1.79m working reflector area.
- less signal is blocked by support arms and feed owing to the offset design
- an offset dish is less susceptible to ground noise. The feed of a prime focus dish is pointing more towards the hot earth and will tend to pick up more noise, hence the design of a prime focus feed which tapers off reception towards the dish rim.
-prime focus dishes are much more difficult to set up owing to the shorter focal length. They perform much like a camera lens: anyone using a SLR camera will know that a lens set to F1.8 or 1.4 will be more difficult to focus than a F8 lens owing to the difference in the depth of field. It's the same with parabolic dishes: prime focus dishes have a very shallow point of accurate focus. No wonder then that many people on Costa Blanca suffer from bad reception, these dishes are the most common type used.

**divibi** · 11-01-2009

Originally Posted by snap

- an offset dish is less susceptible to ground noise. The feed of a prime focus dish is pointing more towards the hot earth and will tend to pick up more noise, hence the design of a prime focus feed which tapers off reception towards the dish rim.
-prime focus dishes are much more difficult to set up owing to the shorter focal length. They perform much like a camera lens: anyone using a SLR camera will know that a lens set to F1.8 or 1.4 will be more difficult to focus than a F8 lens owing to the difference in the depth of field. It's the same with parabolic dishes: prime focus dishes have a very shallow point of accurate focus. No wonder then that many people on Costa Blanca suffer from bad reception, these dishes are the most common type used.

good post! Thank you snap.

pedro2000uk · 11-01-2009

The issue with the ground noise is wrong..

...that's come from wire mesh C Band dishes where it is true ....but it works the other way for solid metal dishes ....(er... not that solid in the case of the Fortecs

).

Wire mesh reflects C band OK but lets x amount of noise through.... the solid metal KU band dish shields the lnb from ground noise and it just points up to the satellite...

The offset's lnb is then potentially more exposed to ground noise directly- it sticks out and aims across the Earth.

There are other issues that aren't right in you lists... I'm not biased either way, I've put people off the fs 2.4s before now and avoided doing them... but there's more swings and roundabouts that only a decent side by side test would give the acid test result....

I like the focus theory though. not sure it's right but I still like it.....

***snap*** · 12-01-2009

All dishes of any type will receive noise from the ground, and surrounding buildings. This applies to Ku band as well as c Band. A good feed design minimises the amount of noise creeping in from the edges. You're right about cBand mesh dishes, but we are not talking about these.
Can't understand why you defend FortecStar dishes. They are complete cr*p. I'm a mod on another board and we have had more complaints about FortecStar dishes than any other, by a long way.
I have installed dishes professionally in Spain. I have been able to compare FortecStar 2.4m with other dishes side by side, as I bought one for myself. It lies rusting in my basement. No one in his right mind would think that these things can compare with a professional quality dish.

To the people asking about dishes in Costa Blanca: buy the best you can afford.
Some people in your area would like you to believe that "Portugese" dishes are the best. They aren't. The best LNBs for fringe BBC & ITV in Spain are made by Invacom. Don't even think about buying a FortecStar dish. Avoid buying anything from Maplin.

pedro2000uk · 12-01-2009

I have to say you have come across with so many arguments that it comes across as obviously bias rather than an impartial technical view... a £2.500-£3000 dish should walk over a £170...

I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy one- especially not the 2.4, thinking they could just put it together like a cheap gazebo and then not strengthen them.. or I could see they clearly didn't have the skills needed.. and in either case .. I'd advise they'd be better getting a proper dish......

Looking at them from an engineering point of view ... if you address the problems and really set them up right (and without buckling them) and strengthen them as you do it, adding about £50-70 in materials to the 1.8 & about £80-100 to the 2.4 then they'll perform... but they'll look like a different dish..... So factor in that they just need re-engineering....it's just a parabola...

I also quietly admire from a production/ marketing point of view, that they can get a dish to the UK and retail so cheap..

As they are sold though... I wonder if they even conform to UK trading standard's definition of 'fit for purpose' ... as one good wind (draft) and they can end up floating around San Antonio harbour...

neoandy · 12-01-2009

Hi all of you ! Smashing work, being among all this info is just astonishing. I think is relly good to have so many points of in one row, i consider your opinin guys as a law, all of you agrees that the Fortec Star is not a good choice, as the quality does not reach the standards that we need out here in Spain to watch freesat.
I would like you to give me, if you can, prices of no so expensive dishes as ChannelMastrer, etc, and as well who sell them on the web.

I know that i been a pain, and i know that without money you cant do....but if there is not other option for dish i am gonna have to go and get one of this "Craptec Star" dish!
I know all of you agree that they are not good.....But as Pedro said before: I do not wanna be part of the "SheepFactor"......

Many thanks guys you are awsome....
Andy.

yorks62 · 22-01-2009

First of all can i thank you guys as this forum as helped me no end in getting me set up down here in Benidorm with tv, I cant knock the fortec star dish, ok its a budget dish but its getting me bbc1 and itv right up till 22/23.00 hrs. Sorry to hijack the thread but can anyone tell me the strongest itv region signal for a free sat receiver ive just brought down from the UK

***woborny*** · 22-01-2009

the ITV channels on 10905 v 22 5/6
ITV Channel Islands , Scottish TV, Ulster TV ITV 3

and 10758 v 22 5/6

ITV 1 London , ITV 2, ITV 4 , ITV 1 Granada TV , ITV 1 Anglia TV North ,
ITV 1 Central West

are nice and strong.. but it you have a sly card you can try and use those found on 12408 v 27 2/3 - but they may drop out during the afternoon but should be OK at night
ITV Mer SE, Thames South, Anglia West, York E, TTS, Central SW

***Huevos*** · 23-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

if there is not other option for dish i am gonna have to go and get one of this "Craptec Star" dish!

Why not just get yourself a 1.2/1.3m and low noise LNB if you are short of cash? You'd be surprised how much you can receive on it, including some of the vertical transponders on 2D.

Originally Posted by snap

Offset dishes are more efficient than prime focus of the same size because:
- the larger surface area, as Pedro says, a 1.8m ASC is 1.9m high.
A prime focus '1.9m' Famaval is actually 1.79m x 1.79m working reflector area.
- less signal is blocked by support arms and feed owing to the offset design

That's misleading. The dish may be 1.9m in height but the cross section offered to the satellite is only 1.8m due to the offset. Also the LNB shadow is not much of an issue. The area of the 1.8m dish is about 25,500cm2. The area blocked by the LNB/feedhorn is about 125cm2. That is not even 0.5% of the total area, and on a DB scale completely insignificant.

joddle · 24-01-2009

Hi all - up until last night I had a 2.4m fortecstar dish on my roof here in Valencia - Last night the 160km p hr wind took it away and folded it up for me so it wont be going back up very soon. However the question must be (according to many of the posts here) was it any good and fit for purpose?

Before I get into this we have to be fair - it was bloody cheap - and what was I really expecting for the price? I knew it would not be as good as a £700 solid dish - why the hell should it be? Its construction is a series of compormises - 6 petals instead of a solid shape and the accuracy of the parabolic shape varies around the petals fom the folded edge to the sheet centre - it is made of thin steel. There is virtually no support - the LNB arms are not very precise - The engineering is not very good - even the petal holes don't always match up......and there is loads more ---- BUT - it did work after a fashion - it was better than the 1.4 M solid dish that I already had - I could watch any freesat programme in the daytime no probs. It was in the night that its weaknesses really showed. Loss of BBC1 at 7:30 and no chance of BBC3 or 4 after 7:30ish - So was it any good? that is a matter of opinion - I would say it was good for the money - but not really up to providing what I needed here in Valencia - perhaps if I lived 100km to the norh it would have been perfect !! Its a bit like getting a cheap wheelbarrow when you really needed a dumper truck - ie it is only as good as it is - but that may be good enough fo some people in certain situations.

Anyway my Fortecstar is now pretty dead - and that is the real weakness of the dish - it is really very flimsy and therefore vulnarable to the weather - and that will be the case wherever you are never mind if its reception is good or not. I certainly won't be getting another...

SO - to all you people thinking of bringing a Maplin special to the Costa Blanca - my advise is DON'T - You should really be spending a bit more to get reliable reception - The agro is simply not worth it. But then again if you are a bit to the north of here - then - well its up to you..

neoandy · 29-01-2009

Originally Posted by yorks62

First of all can i thank you guys as this forum as helped me no end in getting me set up down here in Benidorm with tv, I cant knock the fortec star dish, ok its a budget dish but its getting me bbc1 and itv right up till 22/23.00 hrs. Sorry to hijack the thread but can anyone tell me the strongest itv region signal for a free sat receiver ive just brought down from the UK

Hi yorks62,

I would like to hear your opinion about the fortec star dish, and also would like to know what are you getting from the Astra 2D in this dish, i am about to get one and put it up to try to watch freesat.

Also would like to know until what time you can watch which channels on this dish....

Many thanks in advance

Andy.

pedro2000uk · 29-01-2009

Originally Posted by joddle

Hi all - up until last night I had a 2.4m fortecstar dish on my roof here in Valencia - Last night the 160km p hr wind took it away and folded it up for me ................

thanks for the post... was surprised at the wind speed over there .. 170km/h /100+ ml/h ... did think of those dishes there ..

anyway... did you do any strengthening

joddle · 29-01-2009

Originally Posted by neoandy

Hi yorks62,

I would like to hear your opinion about the fortec star dish, and also would like to know what are you getting from the Astra 2D in this dish, i am about to get one and put it up to try to watch freesat.

Also would like to know until what time you can watch which channels on this dish....

Many thanks in advance

Andy.

Hi - despite my critisism of the fortecstar I know there are a few people who have had reasonable success - look for posts by Syd Eccles on the Digital Spy Forum - he seems to be more in your area AND he claims good results although he has put in a loads of extra work to get the dish up to scratch and performing well - but it seems if you are prepared to build the dish properly and take great care with making sure it is true then it will give some decent results. I must admit when I had more time I spent ages on the dish tweeking and adjusting and did get reasonable results at times - BUT - I had to keep doing it every time there was a strong wind and in the end I just could not be bothered and over time the performace simply worsened. Remember you are in one of the very worst reception areas in the whole of Spain and people around you with very good dishes still have problems - so don't ecxpect too much from a Fortecstar - especially with the weaker Freesat channels. - Good luck... and make sure yours is true and undamaged when you get it - mine was pretty battered in its case when it arrived and had to be returned !!

joddle · 05-03-2009

I have posted this on another forum but it is relevant to this thread as well.

As many of you will have read I struggled with a Fortecstar 2.4 m dish for over four years now. Here in Valencia the best reception I could get from it was to hold onto ITV3 until about 9:30pm and BBC3 until about 8:15. However every time there was a decent wind the dish would change shape or get out of alignment and the reception would fall so I had to go up on the roof with a TV and digibox and readjust for max signal quality. Over the past 12 months I got so fed up of this I did nothing to correct the dish after high winds and by earlier this year was losing even ITV3 at 6:30pm.

Of course I have been contemplating upgrading the dish for ages but finances and lack of will stopped it happening – that is until the gales earlier on this year tore the dish from its mounts and trashed it. A new dish therefore became essential. But which one and what size?

After getting much very good and helpful advice and guidance from many people on this and other forums (many thanks folks) I have a new one piece dish – again 2.4m but now very very firmly attached to a huge block of concrete but in exactly the same location as the old Fortecstar. I must say it certainly looks neater and much more substantial than the old dish but the real question is “Is its performance that much better”? And the answer to that is a resounding YES:

In fact it is so different it’s almost unbelievable. For the first time ever since I have been in Spain I appear to have virtual 24 hour coverage of ALL the Freesat channels including the so called difficult ones such as BBC 2,3 & 4; & ITV 2,3 &4. Even in dark heavy cloud and with very heavy rain I only lost a little quality for Cbeebies for about 10 minutes or so but it did not collapse but did pixelate a little. At midnight yesterday I could not find any Freesat channel that dropped out or failed. And when I connected up my Humax Freesat box in non-freesat mode it managed to find over 800 channels!!! – I will have to sort them out later.

So now my basic setup is the new 2.4 dish, and Invacom quad LNB, Pace C2600 - the Humax will come back out again once I get a TV capable of HD.

Just as an indication of how much improvement I have had, here are a few quality readings taken on the Pace 2600 on average reception days on both the dishes

On Sky default transponder
Fortecstar daytime 60% night 40%
New dish daytime 80% night 60%

12129 (Suggested default for Spain but I don’t actually use this)
Fortecstar daytime 60% night 40%
New dish daytime 100% night 70%

10906V ( ITV3 - ITV3+1)
Fortecstar Daytime 50% night 0 to 20% (dep on weather)
New dish Datime 90% night 60%

10773H For BBC2,3 & 4
Fortecstar daytime 50% night 0%
New dish daytime 90% night 60%

11224V Movies for Men
Fortecstar daytime 50% night 0%
New dish daytime 90% night 60%

Now if anyone asks about a Fortecstar dish for use in this area – I will tell them - DON’T DO IT. Spend a bit more and save yourself a load of grief and frustration.

Also use the forums to get advice – and remember not all what you read is true – notr is all you get told by the installers - especially when it comes to dish types and their properties. Yes cheap dishes are to be avoided BUT the Famaval is not the only decent 2.4 out there. Ask around and ask to see what you are being offered. The time taken will pay you in the end.

pedro2000uk · 05-03-2009

hi joddle..

glad to hear you got it sorted ...

so what make is the new dish and how much was it ... where from.. that might help others there..

joddle · 06-03-2009

Originally Posted by pedro2000uk

hi joddle..

glad to hear you got it sorted ...

so what make is the new dish and how much was it ... where from.. that might help others there..

Hi Pedro - yes it is good to have it sorted after so long.
I asked for quotes from all the installers recommended on this and another forum plus several I had sourced from the web. The quotes were much of a muchness all at around 1300euros for supply and fit a 2,4M dish. The choice really became one of confidence in the company and I got some of that by talking to the guys concerned to find out why I should use them. Some come out with some utter crap but others were very knowledgeable but few knew of the correct size of dish to use in Valencia. I also got very useful local knowledge from some forum members.

In the end I used a company called Base Satellite - surprisingly they did not advocate the Famaval dish but claimed they had a source of Turkish dishes which actually performs better than the Famaval - and that to me seemed contrary to all the advice I had read so I did some more research and found out the dishes they use are not the flimsy ones you see on the DSS website but a much more rugged item. When I saw the dish it was clear the support ring was indeed a very strong and rugged affair. I also had a recommendation for this installer from a very well respected forum member. What swayed me was the attention to detail this company appeared to pay from the outset. The owner was keen to answer all and any questions and took note of the issues I raised regarding my own location and expectations.

Eventually the dish was installed by Gary using a cast concrete block as a base with the support mast firmly embedded within the concrete. No chance of that ever shifting. The tuning of the dish was then performed by their guy called Carlos who spent about half an hour adjusting the perimeter of the dish and the LNB to maximize the reponse - which was as I reported earlier was a huge improvement on my previous 2.4.

The dish has now weathered its first gale without a single shimmer of the quality readings - unlike its predecessor and I must say I am very contented with it.

***Huevos*** · 06-03-2009

Originally Posted by joddle

they did not advocate the Famaval dish but claimed they had a source of Turkish dishes which actually performs better than the Famaval - and that to me seemed contrary to all the advice I had read so I did some more research and found out the dishes they use are not the flimsy ones you see on the DSS website but a much more rugged item.

Everyone's dish out performs the competition's when they're in sales mode. After making a sale I used to say to a workmate of mine "It sounded so good I almost bought it myself". To be honest I can't see an installer having the time, equipment or inclination to do a proper repeatable scientific test that would show the 0.1 of a DB difference there might be between these dishes.

Originally Posted by joddle

When I saw the dish it was clear the support ring was indeed a very strong and rugged affair.

Everything is a rugged affair compared to the Fortec Star. By the way is that the dish with the hole in the centre? Could you post some photos?

Originally Posted by joddle

the dish was installed by Gary using a cast concrete block as a base with the support mast firmly embedded within the concrete. No chance of that ever shifting.

The only problem with that approach is you could never switch to a polar mount if you wanted to as the pole is not adjustable, seams to be par for the course on the Costas though.

joddle · 06-03-2009

A few points re the above post - I doubt I will ever want a polar mount - only interested in 2d and keeping the kids happy with UK mainstream channels.

Also well aware that there is probably no real diference in some of the dishes - but this one works well and that's the main thing.

Was not comparing the ring mount with my Fortecstar but with the ones listed on the DSS website described as being flimsy.

Glad to upload a couple of pics - not easy to get a good shot though due to the location.

Anyway the only message I really wanted to get though is if on the Costs Blanca don't get a fortecstar

pedro2000uk · 06-03-2009

sounds a very good result, especially the result in a gale there ....

I think we might be looking at some 2.4s from Turkey... not sure what make yet.. sounds like them

cheers..

just seen your pictures.. looks all right ..

**pipino** · 06-03-2009

very nice result and very good decision for the dish,just wanted to point out ,the actual dish you have is not turkish but Bulgarian from a company called Pasat and supplied by TECATEL in spain,Base from Benissa got lots of fame using this dish because it holds more time for the horizontal low channels ,in this case BBC2...etc,this is a real 2.40m Prime focus Dish the Famous Famaval is 10CM less,i´v opend a thread about Pasat dish here ---->Pasat 2.40m DISH ,from my many tests the best Feed Horn for this dish if Invacom quad is used is the original Invacom ADF120 ,if MTI AP8TW or Inverto Flange (single or twin) used ,XM140 from swedish microwave works very good too...best regards

***Huevos*** · 06-03-2009

Originally Posted by pipino

this is a real 2.40m Prime focus Dish the Famous Famaval is 10CM less

How does it compare with the Famaval on price? (Famaval is around 600€).

**pipino** · 06-03-2009

i would say more less around the same prices,sometimes you find famaval more expensive just because the massive publicity they have given to the dish

**pipino** · 06-03-2009

Here is just a sample how fantastic the Freesat Humax FOXSAT HD is ,i was doing some raw tests right now and making some differences between the Blind scan receiver VANTAGE and FOXHD ,,

Humax did lock perfectly with BBC1 and can see some BBC2 signs ,on vantage just BBC 1 very instable and no BBC2 at all ,(tested on Gibertini OP1.50)..but i can see that the signal is improving more and more..tonight,would be intersting to see what you guys with the same dish doing in our area
..regards

**pipino** · 07-03-2009

all gone now

..BBC2 just lasted 25min ,BBC1 more then 1hour

joddle · 07-03-2009

Originally Posted by pipino

very nice result and very good decision for the dish,just wanted to point out ,the actual dish you have is not turkish but Bulgarian from a company called Pasat and supplied by TECATEL in spain,Base from Benissa got lots of fame using this dish because it holds more time for the horizontal low channels ,in this case BBC2...etc,this is a real 2.40m Prime focus Dish the Famous Famaval is 10CM less,i´v opend a thread about Pasat dish here ---->http://www.satellites.co.uk/satellite/picture-members-setups-general-satellite-installations/143904-pasat-2-40m-dish.html ,from my many tests the best Feed Horn for this dish if Invacom quad is used is the original Invacom ADF120 ,if MTI AP8TW or Inverto Flange (single or twin) used ,XM140 from swedish microwave works very good too...best regards

It seems from this remark posted recently that the dish is not actually Turkish after all.

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