Astra 2D in Sicily?..not yet.... :( but Im not giving up!!!

**ynot62** · 03-07-2004

Hi Guys,
I am back..
I finally bought a 3.8 meter Patriot dish AZ-EL. We just finished to set the whole dish, the feedhorn and LNB.....result?...NOTHING!!!! No bloody Astra 2D or Astra 2B north beam..

I dont wanna give up cause I think we didnt do everything properly:
First thing is: Do we have to set the dish for best signal on the 11778V transborder?( which is I guess where the Sky EPG is? )
I received a feedhorn which probably is not the right one for my dish: It is a dual feedhorn and for what I can understand is made for Horizontal and vertical reception cause at the beginning is square..so what we did is we rounded it to make it universal.
The feed plate says is a C feed plate instead of Ku feed plate, but it seems ok.
I have an Invacom twin 0.3 db C120 and to set it with the feedhorn we had only one option as the others holes didnt match at all.
My decoder is a Panasonic 30.
The result of all this work is that I get a signal of about 85 % setting on 11.7787 V transborder which actually is the result of what I already receive on my 1.5 meter offset dish...

It seems probably a bit confused what I tried to explane but if anybody can give me any advice, I will try to be more precise.
thanks
Tony

**indios_se** · 04-07-2004

if you look here there is a few people who dont seem to be able to get astra 2d
in the south of italy, even with big dishes.

http://www.astra2d.co.uk/italy.htm

i can give you your elevation and lnb skew figures if you need them though if you dont have them already., but i'll need your location in sicily
regards
Rich

**barney** · 04-07-2004

Hi ynot62,
i'm very disapointed for your experience.
I've your equipment but a 3 mt dish.Centarl Italy. Never a bit of a signal from 2d, in the morning problem with 2a north beam.
11778 V in on 2a north beam, the best signal is around 8 pm.
Can you make a photo of your feedhorn?

Ciao
Barney

**ynot62** · 04-07-2004

Originally Posted by indios_se

if you look here there is a few people who dont seem to be able to get astra 2d
in the south of italy, even with big dishes.

http://www.astra2d.co.uk/italy.htm

i can give you your elevation and lnb skew figures if you need them though if you dont have them already., but i'll need your location in sicily
regards
Rich

Hi Rich,
Im in Taormina on the east coast just 50 kms north of Catania
Ciao
Tony

**indios_se** · 04-07-2004

ok..

at 37n51 15e17 Taormina

azi shoul be 159.19
elevation should be 44.4
skew set to -16.37

good luck
Rich

**indios_se** · 04-07-2004

i've just been lookin at a result of someone who has 2d over in rhodes,
greece with a 2.4metre dish ,which is quite a bit further east,

i would work on gettin your elevation, azimuth and skew more accurate, if not
look into if you have a problem with your lnb and feed horn etc. another good source
for help would be satcure.com forums, as i have no clue about prime-focus dishes
myself

regards
Rich

**rolfw** · 04-07-2004

I would almost guarantee that your problem is the feedhorn, with a badly matched or incorrect type of feedhorn, you can dramatically reduce dish performance.

**ynot62** · 04-07-2004

Originally Posted by rolfw

I would almost guarantee that your problem is the feedhorn, with a badly matched or incorrect type of feedhorn, you can dramatically reduce dish performance.

Hi rolfw and all the guys..thank you for your quick reply.
Just one more question:
If I am looking for Astra 2D, I just need to get the signal from Sky Uk and then Astra 2D will be on teh same satellite or I have to look for a more accurate signal?
I mean Astra 2A, Astra 2B and Astra 2D are excatly on the same signal?
Thank you
Tony

**indios_se** · 04-07-2004

Originally Posted by ynot62

Hi rolfw and all the guys..thank you for your quick reply.
Just one more question:
If I am looking for Astra 2D, I just need to get the signal from Sky Uk and then Astra 2D will be on teh same satellite or I have to look for a more accurate signal?
I mean Astra 2A, Astra 2B and Astra 2D are excatly on the same signal?
Thank you
Tony

yes. just fine tune the dish first as much as possible with the
data i gave you and look into your equipment (which is looking more like the problem.) should you fail to still get 2d,

billieuk · 05-07-2004

According to King of Sat nobody in that region can get Astra 2D, which I thought was just worth pointing out!

http://www.kingofsat.net/en/beams.php?s=52&b=40

***Old Satellite*** · 05-07-2004

Dont give up!

Firstly ensure that you have a KU feed and not a C band feed as a C band feed will not provide the correct focal point for KU band reception, a distance of 15 mm from correct focal differance will easily result in a loss of > 3 db of recieved signal.
Equally the panel surface of the Patriot Dish needs to be aligned to 0.1 mm any mis alignment greater results in signal loss.

Tracking needs to be equally very accurately aligned - the 3.8mtr as a beam width of approx 0.5 degree so alignment to the Astra 2 D satellite is very important.

First steps are to ensure that your feed is correct and the dish alignment is correct.

What test equipment do you have ?

As stated previously there is already is a Patriot 3.8 mtr at a "confendential" south of Rome location recieiving 2d for more than 2 years.

Regards

Old Satellite

***dave branson*** · 05-07-2004

There are reports that south of Rome,there is no reception of Astra 2D,even on a 3.8 mtr dish.
Based on the map of Italy and the footprint and reception reports,a line from, Grosseto.Florence,Bolonga Venice is the edge of the reception area,this sometimes may
differ when the Satellite position is adjusted,but 24/7 reception is not feasable.

***Old Satellite*** · 05-07-2004

I agree while difficult, there are good reports on Astra 2 D reception in southern locations of Italy included a good report with a 2.4 mtr Vsat antenna, as well as a south of Rome location with a Patriot 3.8 mtr.

While "very difficult" it is not impossible, and yes I would confirm that I have seen myself the patriot 3.8 mtr in operation without problem. Normal reception is approx 55-75% "tranponder dependency" signal on an old Grundig GSD 3000.

Just to confirm with the same dish it allows myself at a location in Belgium to recieve the following satellite channels both digital and Analogue.

78.5 east
http://www.thaicom.net/eng-thaicomsa...aicom1A-2.html

and equally 75 .0 east Digital
http://www.intersputnik.com/sputnik_...&img=lmics.jpg

36.0 east
http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/36ew4_popd.html

To name just a few of satellites with footprints well outside of the offical desiginated areas. Time and care and knowledge are essential when setting up for out of footprint satellite reception.

Reagrds

Old Satellite

***dave branson*** · 05-07-2004

Hi Old Satellite.
I can receive 2D re BBC, here in Florence with a 2mtr pf dish,i have experimented with various feedhorns,LNB,s, focal length and skew adjustments ect for the past year,and the plain fact is that with 50/55%
quality signal from approx 10-00am till 19-00pm reception is perfect.
The only time i received it for nearly 24 hrs a day was about 5/6 months ago.
I recently learned that the ground station, adjusts the position of the satellite
at certain times during the year.
So if you are on the edge of the footprint,its a problem with such a weak signal from 2D.
Also it would be nice to know some details of the installations in the south of Italy,ie locations,lnb used,as my digiboxs (1 Pace 2600, 1 Sony 7600) DO NOT
work on my 2mtr pf dish (work for ch4/5 on a 1 mtr dish) i have tried about 6 lnb,s(MTI,S AFT,S ect)
DaveB

**T_G** · 05-07-2004

I read your problems, just a silly question: Does your setup work with satellites such as 13 east or 19? Do you get a strong signal from something local? I suppose if you manage to set up your dish so it works with a strong signal to one of those, then finding the 28 will be easier as you "only" have to move it a few degrees to the east. I used this "trick" when I first set up my dishes in Germany....

**indios_se** · 05-07-2004

i'm absolutely convinced that once this dish has the right setup and skew, then it will receive 2d, this is because rhodes, further to the east is receiving with 2d. i'll give you an example i can pickup 2d only in my town because i spent a massive amount of time skewing the LNB, if i turn it over a few mm to the left or right, i dont receive 2d at all, if its dead on, i receive it all day and night, whatever the weather.

keep at it.

**ynot62** · 05-07-2004

Thanks Guys,
I am going to buy a new feedhorn directly from Patriot in Portugal and it is a Ku band feed.
I will get it back when we try this new feedhorn.
Thanks for the moment
Ciao
Tony

**ynot62** · 06-07-2004

Originally Posted by Old Satellite

Dont give up!

Firstly ensure that you have a KU feed and not a C band feed as a C band feed will not provide the correct focal point for KU band reception, a distance of 15 mm from correct focal differance will easily result in a loss of > 3 db of recieved signal.
Equally the panel surface of the Patriot Dish needs to be aligned to 0.1 mm any mis alignment greater results in signal loss.

Tracking needs to be equally very accurately aligned - the 3.8mtr as a beam width of approx 0.5 degree so alignment to the Astra 2 D satellite is very important.

First steps are to ensure that your feed is correct and the dish alignment is correct.

What test equipment do you have ?

As stated previously there is already is a Patriot 3.8 mtr at a "confendential" south of Rome location recieiving 2d for more than 2 years.

Regards

Old Satellite

I am going to get a Ku band feed from Patriot in Portugal,
what do you mean when you talk about the panel surface needs to be aligned to 0.1 mm? And what is it tracking needs to be very accurately aligned?
Can you explane better? thank you.
We have a very good test equipment, I dont know the name cause My technician is doing the job for me but I guess It is called digital spectrum analizer? I know its very sofisticated instrument and we found Astra 2 on 28.2 est very easily and the quality and strenght signal is very high..around 85 / 90 % on Sky news or CNN.
Our problem is NO Astra 2D
One more thing...do you think we have to skew the LNB by hand or using the instrument?
I know that there is no reports about receiving Astra 2D here in Sicily but there is all around my island so many places where they get Astra 2D..and much more south then me and with a smaller dish...I cant believe that I cant receive The signal with my Patriot dish 3.8 meter..
Its all for now...
Thank you for the moment
Ciao
Tony

***Old Satellite*** · 06-07-2004

The Best feeds are that of Seavey- however very expensive as they are designed for commerial application use.

And additional tasks are required to modify seavey feeds for normal Sky reception the best dual feed that I have tested myself is a seavey
SVY-ESR-124D

http://www.sepatriot.com/feeds_seavey.htm

Equally the most important factor is to ensure that your selected feed is correctly chosen for that of your dish.

LNB several of similar performace MTI, Invacom, C.A etc Normally the best way to ensure the correct feed and lnb combinations is with a spectrum analysis at the recieving site.

Regards

Old Satellite

***Old Satellite*** · 06-07-2004

The Partiot dish is constructed from a number of panels and each of the panels should be aligned so that the surface of each panel is within a tolerance of approx 0.1 mm.

you should not see an ueven suface between each panel when you look at the suface of the dish.

In addition when you look directly from the side of the front facing aspect of the dish face, you should see that the face is aligned as one straight line. normally a good installer will check this with tension wire at several points of the dish face.- if they have not completed this then it is a little strange on such a large professional dish.

The feed horn from patriot - KU band may well produce up to 3db additional gain as the alignment - focal distance of the dish will be correct.

Normally this is measured from the centre of the dish at several locations to the feed horn. And it is extremely critical that the distance is correct.

Thsi distance 156.9 CM.

http://www.sepatriot.com/prt3.8.htm

Digital spectrum analizer this is normal to help setup the dish of this size - however unless the mechanics are correct first then slightly wasted.

Regards

Old Satellite

***dave branson*** · 06-07-2004

i have used the folowing formula for calculating the Focal length.
DISH RADIUS SQUARED
-----------------------
4 X DISH DEPTH

**ynot62** · 06-07-2004

Originally Posted by Old Satellite

The Partiot dish is constructed from a number of panels and each of the panels should be aligned so that the surface of each panel is within a tolerance of approx 0.1 mm.

you should not see an ueven suface between each panel when you look at the suface of the dish.

In addition when you look directly from the side of the front facing aspect of the dish face, you should see that the face is aligned as one straight line. normally a good installer will check this with tension wire at several points of the dish face.- if they have not completed this then it is a little strange on such a large professional dish.

The feed horn from patriot - KU band may well produce up to 3db additional gain as the alignment - focal distance of the dish will be correct.

Normally this is measured from the centre of the dish at several locations to the feed horn. And it is extremely critical that the distance is correct.

Thsi distance 156.9 CM.

http://www.sepatriot.com/prt3.8.htm

Digital spectrum analizer this is normal to help setup the dish of this size - however unless the mechanics are correct first then slightly wasted.

Regards

Old Satellite

do you think we need other equipment to set this dish?
ciao
Tony

**ynot62** · 08-07-2004

Do you think that after I receive the feedhorn and set again the focal distance I should set the skew manually? mm to mm to get the best of the signal?
Ciao
Tony

***Old Satellite*** · 08-07-2004

Firstly set up the feehorn manually to the centre of the dish and ensure that you measure at several points. all measurements should be 156.9 cm within a toleranace of 0.25 mm.

Then once the mechanics are as close as possible you should then connect up the spectrum analyiser and fine tune both the feedhorn and the skew offset.

A lot of patience is key - I invested more than two weeks of fining tuning on my own before excepting that it was an optimum setup.

Regards

Old Satellite

***dave branson*** · 08-07-2004

I found the skew to be very critical,a couple of mm,and no signal,here in
Florence,it actually turned out to be 16deg to the right facing the dish.
Does your Feedhorn have adjustable Scaler Rings? if so,you need to set them
to the correct F/D.

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