Channel 4 on 10714H dropped away

sonnetpete

sonnetpete

Grumpy Old Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,322
My Satellite Setup
Laminas 1.2M fibre dish with an IBU, on a Clarke Tech USALS motor, covering 57E - 24.5W to an Octagon SX88. Displayed on a 20" Dyon LED TV.

Seperate 80 cm dish on 28E with a Humax Freesat for SWMBO.
Free Sat V8 meter. Sony Bravia 46" LCD, Sony BluRay and Home Cinema.
My Location
Normandy, France
sonnetpete

sonnetpete

Grumpy Old Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,322
My Satellite Setup
Laminas 1.2M fibre dish with an IBU, on a Clarke Tech USALS motor, covering 57E - 24.5W to an Octagon SX88. Displayed on a 20" Dyon LED TV.

Seperate 80 cm dish on 28E with a Humax Freesat for SWMBO.
Free Sat V8 meter. Sony Bravia 46" LCD, Sony BluRay and Home Cinema.
My Location
Normandy, France
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Maybe I should have been clearer - I need a c120 for a PF dish not an offset - sorry.
 
Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
28,145
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK South
As per your profile....
 
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Are up-to-date Profiles fairly common? ;)o_O
Ha Ha - Anyway between last night and this morning a very odd thing - the SS on ch4 went down to under 60% and SQ to below 40% - which is well into the red on the Manhattan's indicator - and yet no break up at all! Whilst a few days ago it was breaking up at over 55% SQ !!!! Could this be temperature influenced? - the past week was much colder and yet the past few days a lot milder! Tested again with the Humax and even with the 10DB attenuator attached CH4 is pulling in at almost 95% on SS and 95% SQ. I am beginning to think it is an issue with the Manhattan boxes at that particular frequency - CH4+1 has no issues at all. Are there any other channels below CH4 I can test with?
PS profile now updated :)
 
woborny

woborny

Specialist Contributor
Messages
1,065
My Satellite Setup
1.8m Dish, most Sky and Freesat receivers, 80cm on Illusion motor and Dreambox DM7025, TDT, TDT HD, Ariva 100e,
My Location
Gandia, 70kms south of Valencia, Spain
So here (70kms south of you) a Manhattan S2 on my 1.8m dish invacom quad LNB is getting 100% Quality and 95% SS
(signal meter saying 10.2db)

The same Manhattan S2 on my 80cm dish is getting 40% Quality and 76% SS
(with the signal meter saying 7.7db)
And no picture break up at all.

C4 on 10714 is the lowest frequency.

Perhaps you have some other type of local interference, or maybe you have an older S box and not a newer S2, and that is on its way out...?
 
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
C4 on 10714 is the lowest frequency. Perhaps you have some other type of local interference, or maybe you have an older S box and not a newer S2, and that is on its way out...?
The 3 Manhattan boxes I have were all bought at different times and are all type HDS2 , the last only a year ago but the result for Ch4 is the same on all 3 of them. As the Humax box has no problems using the same feed I think I will haul out one of my old Pace 2600C boxes to see what happens with that. If that pulls in CH4 without any problem then I think I can rule out the LNB being the issue!

I suspect you must be right re interference - not sure what though but not tried disconnecting the wi fi power-lines and the Dect phones as I need to do that when no-one else is using them - will try later if I can. Nothing else obvious around here re other possible interference.
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
540
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
If that pulls in CH4 without any problem then I think I can rule out the LNB being the issue!
If you have a chain of interdependant things, you can never rule something out definitely.
You might be right, or you might not be right, ruling something out in such a way.

Have you tried changing the LOFs yet?

A33.
 
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Have you tried changing the LOFs yet?A33.
No I haven't -mainly because I would not know what I am doing or how to do it.

Also when trying to learn a little about LOFs I discovered an article in which it states that such an adjustment will do nothing for SQ so with my limited knowledge thought it best not to do anything at this stage. The article is at:

LNB Frequency (LO - LOF) Explained - PBP Community Forum
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
540
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
So, what the farmer doesn't know, he doesn't eat, as the Dutch proverb says?
Thank you very much. :(

You could also search for this on the internet: LNB frequency drift.
I don't know if that is the cause in your case, but it certainly causes reception problems, firstly only at one or a few frequencies.
So testing does no harm at all, and in the diagnosis process with symptoms as yours I would always test for this possibility.
I had an LNB once, with which I had to change the LOFs every fall and spring....
(Or rather, I still have it somewhere, but I don't use it anymore.)

greetz,
A33
 
Last edited:
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
540
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
No I haven't -mainly because I would not know what I am doing or how to do it.
Do you have a LNB menu?
If the LNB is now defined as 'universal' (meaning LOFs 9750/10600), then search for the possibility of manual setting of LOFs. Most normal receivers have that option, I would think.
You can allways change the settings back ~ no harm done, this way.

Otherwise the only way to test is by transponder scanning with a 'shifted' frequency; or (a bit drastic ~ if no other possibilities exist) erasing the transponder list and do a blind scan ~ but receivers without the prior options would also not have a blind scan, possibly?


In the worst case you won't find a difference, and the test leads only to confirmation that that was not the problem.
However, I've frequently seen topics of people buying new LNBs, while the only problem they had could be solved by changing some frequency value, and the LNB could function on for some years. Me personally, I prefer that kind of solution. :)

Greetz,
A33
 
Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
28,145
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK South
Do you have a LNB menu?
If the LNB is now defined as 'universal' (meaning LOFs 9750/10600), then search for the possibility of manual setting of LOFs. Most normal receivers have that option, I would think.
You can allways change the settings back ~ no harm done, this way.

Otherwise the only way to test is by transponder scanning with a 'shifted' frequency; or (a bit drastic ~ if no other possibilities exist) erasing the transponder list and do a blind scan ~ but receivers without the prior options would also not have a blind scan, possibly?


In the worst case you won't find a difference, and the test leads only to confirmation that that was not the problem.
However, I've frequently seen topics of people buying new LNBs, while the only problem they had could be solved by changing some frequency value, and the LNB could function on for some years. Me personally, I prefer that kind of solution. :)

Greetz,
A33

Everybody likes a cheap(er ) solution if the result is the same, however the Humax works , possibly to a more forgiving agc control or wider afc, but the issue is progressive, and the individual ports from the dish do not appear to be at fault.

Hombre o ratón ?
 
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Not meaning not to try things but taking care to only do what I understand and know I can undo - so far can't find an option to change the LNB settings from the Manhattan will look at the manual when I locate it. Maybe it is worth a try! but for now Ch4 is working fine! One thing did occur to me - and that was the dish was set up before 2E 2F and 2G existed - and it was never re-optimised for the new sats - could that have an effect on a single frequency?
 
woborny

woborny

Specialist Contributor
Messages
1,065
My Satellite Setup
1.8m Dish, most Sky and Freesat receivers, 80cm on Illusion motor and Dreambox DM7025, TDT, TDT HD, Ariva 100e,
My Location
Gandia, 70kms south of Valencia, Spain
I have found that the the weakest "freesat" signals in our area are:
ITV1 HD frequencies
the UKTVGroup of channels (ie Dave)
and Discovery (ie QUEST).
So i would suggest that a simple test is if you can get these channels then your dish is aligned fine.
 
J

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Messages
520
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
I have found that the the weakest "freesat" signals in our area are:
ITV1 HD frequencies
the UKTVGroup of channels (ie Dave)
and Discovery (ie QUEST).
So i would suggest that a simple test is if you can get these channels then your dish is aligned fine.
Well they all come in fine with over 80%SS and 80% SQ on the S2 receiver so I guess alignment is OK
 
superpascu2

superpascu2

Member
Messages
96
My Satellite Setup
ATLAS HD100 - ASTRA 19,2 + HOTBIRD 13 + 28,2 1.2m famaval
My Location
Alicante
What about wind?

As we know, CH4 is one of the channels with lowest signal (apart from the one's pointed out) that means that if wind blows you can have break up

But you should also reallign your dish from time to time. With a 1,8m in your location you should get more dbs in those channels unless you are focused more in 2G...which could be the case as you said you are getting better results un CH4HD

In my case, with a 1,1m famaval in Alicante I am having strongest signal results this days than in Summer. Signal is stronger now. But I have the dish alligned to 2E. As a result I don't get any of the ITVHD or high frequencies as 12304H
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
540
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
Not meaning not to try things but taking care to only do what I understand and know I can undo - so far can't find an option to change the LNB settings from the Manhattan will look at the manual when I locate it.
(Pre)caution is good! As you use it to learn a few things, it seems. :)

Just looked at the manual of plaza S2 ~ and it doesn't give the option of manual LOF settings in there, indeed.

So you can only try a 'manual scan'; but that complicates the procedure, alas.
It looks like you can choose to save or not to save the found channels on a manual scan. Otherwise you would have to delete the stored channels, afterwards.
So you could test if the signal quality at 10718 (or 10710) MHz is better than at 10714 MHz, to see if the frequency has drifted.

Don't know if trying to finetune the dish more in the direction of 28.5 (Astra 2E) would help. Thát you would have to try yourself (first by pushing the dish a bit in the wanted direction, and see if quality level rises?).

BTW Have you checked skew of the LNB?
Though 28.2 has a pre-skew of 7,5 degrees as far as I know; I've read somewhere that 28.5 has no pre-skew? Can someone confirm that?
At your location: -22,7* with pre-skew, -30,2* without preskew.

greetz,
A33
 
A

archive10

Guest
Not meaning not to try things but taking care to only do what I understand and know I can undo - so far can't find an option to change the LNB settings from the Manhattan will look at the manual when I locate it. Maybe it is worth a try! but for now Ch4 is working fine! One thing did occur to me - and that was the dish was set up before 2E 2F and 2G existed - and it was never re-optimised for the new sats - could that have an effect on a single frequency?
It just might. 2E is roughly at 28.5E, whereas 2F and 2G are nearer 28.2E.
Astra 2D used to be at 28.2E, so it is aiming for 2F/G rather than 2E.

In my experience, this spread-out makes a difference for fringe reception.
When going >1m dish here (e.g. 1.2m), there is a clear difference pointing at 28.5E and 28.2E.
On a 1.8, the effect is usually even more marked due to the narrower beam width.
Although I am east of spot rather than south, I believe similar principle applies both places.

So pointing at 28.2E, you may lose some of the harder-to-catch transponders.
If 10714H is one of the more difficult ones on 2E, then that will be one of the first to go.
Coupled with the low frequency, it is in obvious candidate for challenging reception with a ageing LNB aimed at 28.2E.

If your core watching needs can be met with SD channels on 2E, then I would speculate that re-aligning the dish to 28.2E could give you better results on 10714.
However, you will then probably find the 2F/G channels more prone to problems.
OTOH, if you can do with the stuff on 2F/G, you probably don't need to touch anything.
 
Top