Comparison of LNBs on Channel Master 1.2m -- with and without feed horn -- Invacom, Inverto, SMW, Sm

Franky_D

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Part One

Once I decided to check if channel master matching feed horn provides any added value compared to an LNBf. I’ve read a lot of opinions on forums but the easiest was to check for myself.

Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.
Dish: Channel Master 1.2m

For this matter I compared:
- Invacom SNH-031 (LNBf) vs SNF-031 (flange C120); and
- Inverto Black Pro Circular
LNBf 0.2 dB vs Inverto Black flange C120.

I pointed the dish to two different satellites (one after the other) for more objective results (fringe reception for both):
- 36E (Eutelsat 4W and Eutelsat 7W);
- 28.2E (Astra 2F and 1N).


As a result it was pretty much clear that feed horn can improve quality of the signal (C/N or SNR) by at least 0.3-0.5 dB, and up to 1-1.5 dB (smart combination of feed horn and LNB for a specific task). This is a lot for someone at the edge of a footprint!!!
I have to make few notes here to help understand results better:
  • Should I have used different feed horns for different frequency ranges (10.7-11.7 and 11.7-12.7) improvement provided by feed horn use would have been bigger (I was a bit in a rush that day, trying to perform too many tests). See results of different types/generations of Channel Master matching feed horns tests in my previous thread: http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/158555-different-generations-of-channel-master-matching-feed-horns-put-to-test/
  • Although SNH-031 and SNF-031 should be in principle the same LNB (i mean electronically, with the exception of the wave guide part), the tested SNH-031 happened to be a bit more successful one – with approx 5 dB higher gain and lower noise [SIZE=12.222222328186035px]throughout[/SIZE] the whole range. See attached certificates with test results for these specific LNBs (came in boxes with them). Should I had SNH-031 and SNF-031 with identical gain and noise, improvement provided by feed horn would have been bigger;
  • In perfect sunny/clear weather conditions improvement provided by a feed horn is less than on a cloudy day. I had to re-test few transponders on a cloudy day and for example a) difference in SNR between Inverto Black Pro Circular LNBf and SNF-031+feedhorn was 1,3 dB compared to only 0.5 dB on a sunny day; :cool: difference in SNR between SNH-031 and SNF-031+feedhorn was 0.8 dB compared to only 0.2 dB on a sunny day.
Part Two

At the same time this was a chance to compare how flange/C120 Invacom perform compared to flange/C120 Inverto. And to make it more [SIZE=12.222222328186035px]interesting[/SIZE], I added few more flange C120 LNBs to the test:
- Smart twin modified to C120 flange
- Octagon quad modified to C120 flange
- NJR 2784H 10.95-11.7 GHz, LO 10.00 GHz, NF 1.0dB
- NJR 2754H 12.25-12.75 GHz, LO 11.30 GHz, NF 1.0dB
- SMW 1208 11.7-12.75 GHz, LO 10.75, NF 0.65 dB
Octagon and Smart Titanium were kindly provided for the test by cosworth4x4 from satpimps.com (http://www.satpimps.com/showthread.php?153388-lnb-tests-smart-tit-black-ultra-invacom-twin-c120-invacom-quad-c120)


As a result of the test:

  • Invacom SNF-031 with feed horn outperformed others in the range 11.7-12.7 both linear and circular polarization signals (even though the tested one was not the “fastest scooter on the peer” among other batches);
  • Inverto Black C120 was not consistent at all (there were few peaks) and overall significantly (0.8-1 d:cool: behind the Invacom Single C120 ;
  • Moded Smart and Octagon performed best of all in 10.7-11.7 GHz linear polarization. Octagon remained also generally strong in 11.7-12.7 GHz. Considering price for Smart and Octagon – it’s not bad performance at all!!! Good value for the money!!!
  • NJR and SMW LNBs did not impress me. Either they are meant for other purposes (data transmission purposes, etc) due to their LO stability, or the tested ones were a bit outdated and with their 1dB noise they could not compete with others.


I hope someone will find these results helpful! :)
 

Attachments

  • Passport SNF-031.pdf
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  • Passport SNH-031.pdf
    771.6 KB · Views: 212

purplemarina

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Very interesting! thanks for your work.
 

Burnham Beech

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I did a similar comparison between the Invacom & Inverto C120 single LNBs about two years ago. I am using a Channel Master 1.2 metre dish in SE England with an original Channel Master feedhorn.

My results were that the Inverto outperformed the Invacom across the frequency range.

I am not doubting your results you achieved - just putting on record that I did the same tests as you and got a different result - in my case in favour of the Inverto C120 LNB.
 

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Great report. I was always wondering how the reception conditions look like in Copenhagen for fringe satellites and W4/W7 Russia Beam is one interesting case of many, especially because of circular polarisation being transmitted. It's quite a surprise also that you can get Astra 2F after what i am reading on the german board DF. You have far better results than some people in Hamburg. Maybe a sidelobe is covering your region ?
 

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Burnham Beech said:
I did a similar comparison between the Invacom & Inverto C120 single LNBs about two years ago. I am using a Channel Master 1.2 metre dish in SE England with an original Channel Master feedhorn.

My results were that the Inverto outperformed the Invacom across the frequency range.

I am not doubting your results you achieved - just putting on record that I did the same tests as you and got a different result - in my case in favour of the Inverto C120 LNB.
I compared a) Invacom SNH-031 0.3 dB lnbf vs. Inverto Black Pro Circular 0.2dB lnbf and b) Invacom SNF-031 c120 vs Inverto Black c120. In both cases Invacom was better. But I guess the only way to find the best one for a specific case (combination of location, satellite, dish) is to try few and choose the best performer.

SNF-031 which i used in the test was "not the best from the batch", i will be getting a quad Invacom c120 to see if it can provide any further improvement. :)
 

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deepbluesky said:
Great report. I was always wondering how the reception conditions look like in Copenhagen for fringe satellites and W4/W7 Russia Beam is one interesting case of many, especially because of circular polarisation being transmitted. It's quite a surprise also that you can get Astra 2F after what i am reading on the german board DF. You have far better results than some people in Hamburg. Maybe a sidelobe is covering your region ?
Than you!

Satbeams.com suggests 90cm dish for Eutelsat 36A, which might not provide reserve for bad weather. With 120cm Channel Master and small LNBf (Inverto Black Pro 0.2dB ) reception is very solid for both DVB-S and DVB-S2 24/7 in all weather conditions including light rain/snow. With feed horn and Invacom LNB i hope to get more reserve during the rainy season! :)

Hamburg seems to be closer to the 2F spot beam and should be getting better reception... Maybe we are indeed blessed here with some sidelobe! :)
Frankly, I did not spend much time when setting the dish to Astra 2F, I might have got 0.2-0.5 dB better SNR if I fine-tuned it better. But i simply did not have much time that day and for my tests max signal was irrelevant.
One professional Sat company here told me that Astra 2F with 120cm - was "mission impossible", therefore I was actually surprised that I could get it. On a sunny day I could see all open HD and SD channel, did not try it on 24/7 basis (not interested in 2F as such).
 

deepbluesky

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Ok that's a bit OT here but let me just tell you that you are at a lucky location to have both Astra 2F and Eutelsat W4/W7 Russia Beams. Most people either have one of them or none. Would be great to see some other report of yours in the Fringe reception section.
 

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deepbluesky said:
Ok that's a bit OT here but let me just tell you that you are at a lucky location to have both Astra 2F and Eutelsat W4/W7 Russia Beams. Most people either have one of them or none. Would be great to see some other report of yours in the Fringe reception section.
Indeed. I'd give my right nut to receive 36E Russian beams here...
 

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Captain Jack said:
Indeed. I'd give my right nut to receive 36E Russian beams here...
Watch out now! They might send a beam now to Portishead knowing the high price! :)
 

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A Ka spot beam? I can use a saucepan lid to receive it then!
 

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Franky_D said:
Part One

Once I decided to check if channel master matching feed horn provides any added value compared to an LNBf. I’ve read a lot of opinions on forums but the easiest was to check for myself.

Location: Copenhagen, Denmark.
Dish: Channel Master 1.2m

For this matter I compared:
- Invacom SNH-031 (LNBf) vs SNF-031 (flange C120); and
- Inverto Black Pro Circular
LNBf 0.2 dB vs Inverto Black flange C120.

I pointed the dish to two different satellites (one after the other) for more objective results (fringe reception for both):
- 36E (Eutelsat 4W and Eutelsat 7W);
- 28.2E (Astra 2F and 1N).


As a result it was pretty much clear that feed horn can improve quality of the signal (C/N or SNR) by at least 0.3-0.5 dB, and up to 1-1.5 dB (smart combination of feed horn and LNB for a specific task). This is a lot for someone at the edge of a footprint!!!
I have to make few notes here to help understand results better:
  • Should I have used different feed horns for different frequency ranges (10.7-11.7 and 11.7-12.7) improvement provided by feed horn use would have been bigger (I was a bit in a rush that day, trying to perform too many tests). See results of different types/generations of Channel Master matching feed horns tests in my previous thread: http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/158555-different-generations-of-channel-master-matching-feed-horns-put-to-test/
  • Although SNH-031 and SNF-031 should be in principle the same LNB (i mean electronically, with the exception of the wave guide part), the tested SNH-031 happened to be a bit more successful one – with approx 5 dB higher gain and lower noise [SIZE=12.22px]throughout[/SIZE] the whole range. See attached certificates with test results for these specific LNBs (came in boxes with them). Should I had SNH-031 and SNF-031 with identical gain and noise, improvement provided by feed horn would have been bigger;
  • In perfect sunny/clear weather conditions improvement provided by a feed horn is less than on a cloudy day. I had to re-test few transponders on a cloudy day and for example a) difference in SNR between Inverto Black Pro Circular LNBf and SNF-031+feedhorn was 1,3 dB compared to only 0.5 dB on a sunny day; :cool: difference in SNR between SNH-031 and SNF-031+feedhorn was 0.8 dB compared to only 0.2 dB on a sunny day.
Part Two

At the same time this was a chance to compare how flange/C120 Invacom perform compared to flange/C120 Inverto. And to make it more [SIZE=12.22px]interesting[/SIZE], I added few more flange C120 LNBs to the test:
- Smart twin modified to C120 flange
- Octagon quad modified to C120 flange
- NJR 2784H 10.95-11.7 GHz, LO 10.00 GHz, NF 1.0dB
- NJR 2754H 12.25-12.75 GHz, LO 11.30 GHz, NF 1.0dB
- SMW 1208 11.7-12.75 GHz, LO 10.75, NF 0.65 dB
Octagon and Smart Titanium were kindly provided for the test by cosworth4x4 from satpimps.com (http://www.satpimps.com/showthread.php?153388-lnb-tests-smart-tit-black-ultra-invacom-twin-c120-invacom-quad-c120)


As a result of the test:

  • Invacom SNF-031 with feed horn outperformed others in the range 11.7-12.7 both linear and circular polarization signals (even though the tested one was not the “fastest scooter on the peer” among other batches);
  • Inverto Black C120 was not consistent at all (there were few peaks) and overall significantly (0.8-1 d:cool: behind the Invacom Single C120 ;
  • Moded Smart and Octagon performed best of all in 10.7-11.7 GHz linear polarization. Octagon remained also generally strong in 11.7-12.7 GHz. Considering price for Smart and Octagon – it’s not bad performance at all!!! Good value for the money!!!
  • NJR and SMW LNBs did not impress me. Either they are meant for other purposes (data transmission purposes, etc) due to their LO stability, or the tested ones were a bit outdated and with their 1dB noise they could not compete with others.


I hope someone will find these results helpful! :)
Thanks a lot for your tests- for me its very usfull
Dear Franky,can you explain please what the right way to prepare circular LNB from Invacom or Inverto linear flaunge LNB?
I am also looking for sollution fo Russian Beam on 36E in Israel
I am going to use channel master dish 1.8 m with original FH and lookin for sollution to use Inverto or Invacom C120 LNB
Thanks again and Best Regards
Felix
 

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felixg said:


Thanks a lot for your tests- for me its very usfull
Dear Franky,can you explain please what the right way to prepare circular LNB from Invacom or Inverto linear flaunge LNB?
I am also looking for sollution fo Russian Beam on 36E in Israel
I am going to use channel master dish 1.8 m with original FH and lookin for sollution to use Inverto or Invacom C120 LNB
Thanks again and Best Regards
Felix
Hi felixg,

For circular signal reception you would need to insert a depolarization plate inside the feed horn. See pictures.

It is possible to pull out such plate from one of factory made circular LNBs, buy it for example from SMW in Swedn, make it yourself from plastic cards (credit card like) or other types of plastic (CD box, etc). I've tried a lot of different materials, shapes, thikness, etc. The one on the picture is self made (recepie from on the Russian forums from 2005) and it performed best in my tests (of course i had to experiment here as well). It all depends how strong of a signal you get. If it is strong, any plate will do it. If it's week (every 0.1 dB makes difference), than you need to get the best plate! Please send me google maps link to you location to check 36E signal for you area.

There are different types of "CM matching feed horns" and they have slots inside from different ends (some from back end, the others from the front end). I tried three different types of feed horns and found out that one of them (grey color, slim one) is specifically good for 36E. See here: http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/158555-different-generations-of-channel-master-matching-feed-horns-put-to-test/
 

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Franky_D said:
Hi felixg,



For circular signal reception you would need to insert a depolarization plate inside the feed horn. See pictures.



It is possible to pull out such plate from one of factory made circular LNBs, buy it for example from SMW in Swedn, make it yourself from plastic cards (credit card like) or other types of plastic (CD box, etc). I've tried a lot of different materials, shapes, thikness, etc. The one on the picture is self made (recepie from on the Russian forums from 2005) and it performed best in my tests (of course i had to experiment here as well). It all depends how strong of a signal you get. If it is strong, any plate will do it. If it's week (every 0.1 dB makes difference), than you need to get the best plate! Please send me google maps link to you location to check 36E signal for you area.



There are different types of "CM matching feed horns" and they have slots inside from different ends (some from back end, the others from the front end). I tried three different types of feed horns and found out that one of them (grey color, slim one) is specifically good for 36E. See here: http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/topic/158555-different-generations-of-channel-master-matching-feed-horns-put-to-test/
Dear Franky
Thanks a lot for your quick response
Your information is very usfull for me
My coordinates are:
[SIZE=medium]N31°56'26.45"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]E34°52'31.47"[/SIZE]
Will glad to recive your recomendations
 

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felixg said:
Dear Franky
Thanks a lot for your quick response
Your information is very usfull for me
My coordinates are:
[SIZE=medium]N31°56'26.45"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]E34°52'31.47"[/SIZE]
Will glad to recive your recomendations
Hi felixg,

I checked the footpring of 36E for your area and it does not look very promissing. Just need to give it a try to see how good of a signal you can get. I can suggest to start checking liniar signal from 36E with the hardware you've got already, based on that you can get a basic idea if circular will be any good, you can find measuments for both circular and liniar in my tests - for relative comparison. If that would give some positive results, there would be space for experiements to optimize the circular signal reception - from my expereince good/optimized depolarizing plate inside a feed horn can give significant difference.

I've tested various plates with CM matching feedhorns: original SMW plate, Inverto plate (actualy in combintation with both Inverto c120 and Invacom c120), tons of self made one. The best results were achieved with self made plate from a circute board 0.2 mm thick (by etching a layer of copper). :) It is a bit manual and complicated technology. I can send you one for your tests.

I forgot to attach pictures last time, see attached now.

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56203]
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56204]
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56205]
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56206]
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56207]

Cheers
 

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Dear Franky
Thanks a lot for your help and for pictures
I forgot to update you that I actually receive 36E with 1.2 m Gebertiny metal Dish and collect about 50% of NTV+ and 2 Transponders from Tricolor with Standard circular LNB for offset dish
My idea is to enlarge quality and quantity of transponders. I brought today 1.8m Chanel Master fiber dish and will try my tests after installation (during next couple of days).
Will glad to receive your recommendations and will update about my experience.
I have a question about FH cover. If its important? Due to miss on my dish .if yes can you suggest what kind of material can I use for that?

Thanks
Best Regards

Felix
 

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Dear Franky
Thanks a lot for your help and for pictures
I forgot to update you that I actually receive 36E with 1.2 m Gebertiny metal Dish and collect about 50% of NTV+ and 2 Transponders from Tricolor with Standard circular LNB for offset dish
My idea is to enlarge quality and quantity of transponders. I brought today 1.8m Chanel Master fiber dish and will try my tests after installation (during next couple of days).
Will glad to receive your recommendations and will update about my experience.
I have a question about FH cover. If its important? Due to miss on my dish .if yes can you suggest what kind of material can I use for that?
Thanks
Best Regards

Felix

Hi Felix,
What kind if FH you've got? Can you post a picture?
Cheers!
 

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IMAG2499.jpg
Franky_D said:
Hi Felix, What kind if FH you've got? Can you post a picture? Cheers!
Yes
Attached one
I would like to paint it
What kind of paint can i use?
BR
Felix
 

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Dear Franky
What are you say about this LNB?:
Inverto Red line C120 Quad LNB
 

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Dear Franky
What are you say about this LNB?:
Inverto Red line C120 Quad LNB



Hi Felix,
To answer your questions in turn:
1) I was thinking one day to try various types of plastic for cover, but never got to it. Therefore can not really help here;
2) Any good paint for metal should be OK;
3) I have never tried red line. I've compared LNBfs 40mm white and black and black was better performer.
Cheers!
 
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