distrubution sky tv and digital /anolog

H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#1
hi i am installing a sat for sky tv i have 1 sky plus and 2 sks digital boxes . but we have six rooms where i would need a sky point and a ANOLOG IN EACH ROOM WE ARE NOT ALLOWED 2 DISHES as the building is listed is there a distrubution system that will allow me to run six sky points from one lnb i would also like to run terrestrel tv on the same system if there is a distrubution amp that will do the job were can i get one from thanks for looking tony
 
rolfw

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
37,727
Likes
1,291
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#2
Everything is possible, but I'm not sure I grasp what you are requiring, what do you mean by analogue in each room, do you mean a terrestrial signal?

You can use an 8 way multiswitch with a quattro LNB and run a terrestrial feed into it, then distribute that to triplexed outlets, but you will of course need two sky feeds to the room where the Sky+ box is. :)
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#3
For multiswitch help, see my guide in our tutorials section. It's completely over-the-top, but at least should tell you what u want to know.

For multiswitch types and prices, goto www.cpc.co.uk , and type "multiswitch" into the search box. Orders over £30 - which this would be - have free postal delivery.

(added - sorry I forgot to say - if there's always going to be at least one powered Sky digibox conected - of any type - then you can use a "receiver powered" multiswitch, which doesn't need mains power and is quite a bit cheaper, Global do a range of these, they should be on the cpc site, above link).

see www.globalcom.co.uk/upload/5x8_RX_M.pdf .
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#4
thank u for your help
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#5
in fact, I can't see the receiver powered multiswitches at cpc, any more, but you can still buy them direct from Global, at their above website:

www.globalcom.co.uk .

Also, my multisiwtch "guide" has - quite correctly - grave warnings about correct earthing in public buildings. However, for private home use, not essential, it's up to you! Multiswitches are "class 2" electrical products - just like sat receivers, tv sets, etc - so don't necessarily need earthing.
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#6
thank u spinney for the in depth guide to installing a multiswitch 1 was so impresed that i will leave a donation to the site i have one small Q do the same rules apply for connecting the receivers to the outlet plates do u have to turn off the multi swich as they will be moved about quite alot and i did not want to damage any thing opps 2 small Q
 
rolfw

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
37,727
Likes
1,291
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#7
No need to turn off the multiswitch, there is no power at the outlet, it is provided by the digibox, which of course you will turn off before disconnecting. :).
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#8
(late reply!), possible equipment damage, to clarify .....

sat receivers have dc volts on lnb socket, so it's always a "good idea" to de-power before connecting or disconnecting this.

Some early sat receivers could be damaged by shorting out the lnb socket, which is easily done! Most or all modern receivers should have short circuit protection, usually by current limiting, sometimes there's also a special fuse somewhere before the tuner.

As far as I know, all current Sky digiboxes have short circuit protection, certainly my Pace 2200 does, and that's old. But, try not to rely on this being true!

A multiswitch is built to withstand operational conditions, including putting unexpected dc volts onto the outlets or shorting them, though it wouldn't survive mains voltage!

(added) A mains powered multiswitch supplies the quattro lnb - and any internal circuitry - by itself, and would typically draw only maybe 40mA from each connected receiver, not enought to power even a single output lnb!

Receiver powered types derive current entirely from connected receivers (obviously!). If only 1 receiver connected, must be able to power the switch alone! Most sat receivers can supply up to 350mA from lnb socket, which should be enough, but it's wise to check!
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#9
once again i found your guide on multiswitches very helpfull i installed the sytem on saturday using a 60 cm dish quatro lnb a labgear 8 way multiswitch i also incorperated fm and uhf i had to use a triplex as the multiswich only had one input marked terrestial and all the socket triplex fm uhf and sat apart from the lounge which had sky plus and the outlet had two feed cable from the multiswich the whole installation went very well rihgt up to the point were i turned it on .the terrestrial channel were very poor lots of interferance and no sky after a hour of testing i found that removing the terestrial input to the multiswich all the sky points started to work it seems as soon as i connect the terestrial up it jams the sky i t was late saturday night when i dicoverd this and it was well dark think it all connected ok but could not check as it was dark im going back on wedenday to hopefuly sort it out but if u have any ideas i would be greatfull
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#10
Sorry about the problem, I'll try and help.

Having looked it up, the labgear 8 way has rather high sat insertion loss, although that's not your problem!

It also has a rather low terr-to-sat isolation, 25 dB sounds a lot, but most multiswitches give 35 or 40dB isolation.

Yes, there's normally only 1 terr input, for 1-900 Mhz, the required terr bands being combined before that point, then they can be separately filtered off from sat i.f. inside the switch, to give the required bandpass frequency isolation.

Sounds like something on terr is overloading the sat section, possibly giving spurious products.

You're using sat cable, but what sort? Also, a purpose made combiner for fm/tv aerial? Hopefully, in which case, some frequency filtering should be present.

Unfortunately, a fm aerial - in particular - can pick up all sorts of uwanted things!

First, determine which aerial causes the problem. Leave terr in, but disconnect fm and tv in turn, does satellite then come back with either out?

Go through the UHF bands on tv, look for interference on particular channels. Also on fm radio, anything between channels?

When you have all terrestrial, then what happens to sat "signal quality"?

That's a start ....

(added) more stuff to try ......

I see the labgear has built in attenuators. WIth terr connected, and sat polarities at max level, try slowly reducing the terr level, at some point does sat start working again?

I've noticed you also posted, just below, about analogue interference - on UHF signal out of a Sky receiver - suggesting there's a problem with the analogue distrinution. So, I'd expect "patterning" - clearly visible across the unused channels - on any analogue tv sets connected to the multiswitch distribution (with the terr tv aerial in!), is that what happens?

I'd never heard of Labgear multiswitches before this (but seen most other sorts), and unfortunately it turns out they have rather low terr/sat isolation (in my opinion, unacceptably low!). 15 dB difference doesn't sound much, but remember it's really 30 times, a huge amount!

Anyway, let's try and get some initial clues as to what's happening, then "close in" on the exact problem, keep fingers crossed ......
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#11
thanks for the help. going to do the job wedensday is it poss that a braid of copper touching the inner core could cause this problen .oh the sat cable i used was digimax costs about 20.00 for 100 meters i will let u know the out come once again thanks
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#12
i used correct
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#13
i also used the correct spliter a labgear combinder for combing fm dab and uhf
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#14
hi went back today the fm aerial was the problem as soon as i disconnected it the sky started to work so i replaced it with a dab aerial .still had interferance on ch 4 which on tacolnestone transmitter is on the top end of the uhf band 823 mhz ch 1 2 3 were fine they are in the 700s range .the interferance is kind of like a hair dryer would make but horizontal lines . so i got a new multiswitch a antiferancesys ams712 which had 30 db of isolation between the uhf and sat . they did not do a 40 db one .this inproved maters good sat good ter digital . ch 4 anolog still some interferance i think its the best im going to get it with the equipment im using dont think they are going to watch much anolog as this has been installed in a barn conversion and i presume they will have sky in every room or freeview .roll on 2012 when anolog is turned off .dont know about you but i will be glad to see the back of it thanks every one great site .
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#15
Hello again Handyman44 (I was "off duty" yesterday!).

Sorry, no criticism implied, I was just trying to obtain max info, to give best help.

(Anyone who self installs a multiswitch - without previous experience of this - is being quite brave!).

If cable inner and outer conductors are touching, anywhere, usually you would get nothing at all (certainly no sat, or digi terrestrial, though still possibly residual (bad!) analogue via induction, depending, etc ....).

If you've used any type of "satellite cable" for the distribution, whichever one, then there should be no problem in actually distributing the sat signals (that's ignoring any additional interference, which might make the sat signals "un-decodable"!). There's a huge difference between sat cable, and "ordinary" cable for UHF tv. Sat frequencies will not "travel" along ordinary tv cable, for more than just a few feet, and obviously you haven't got that problem!

Yes, a "proper" aerial combiner - with bandpass filters built in - will certainly help, if you've got broadband high level r.f. interference (it certainly seems like you have!).

I'm sorry, apologies, but it turns out that - by pure bad luck - you first got a multiswitch with the worst terr-sat separation figure I've ever seen, maybe an old design, normally this should work ok, but of course it's more susceptible to interference problems, should there be any!

(I don't want to say "Labgear multiswitches are bad" - since often they would work, and otherwise Labgear do a good and very useful equimpment range - but other people be warned!).

(My multiswitch guide didn't mention terrestrial signal distribution problems, since that's really a different subject! Normally, even if there's a problem on terrestrial, a multiswitch with "usual" 35-40 dB separation would give fair protection from possible consequent problems, ie, sat amps "overloading" from spurious distortion products).
(Note that, that's terr- to- sat separation, and not the completely different outlet- to- outlet separation, which is probably only 20 - 30 dB!).

Yes, a DAB aerial isn't quite correct for fm band 2, but is still probably better than any receiver built-in aerial, for reducing hiss on analogue fm stereo (19 Khz pilot tone system).

Try keeping sat signals at max level, but attenuating the terr section as much as allowed, should be no noticable difference terr analogue tv, but check all terr digital muxes still work. This should reduce the sat interference problem, but you may have to "compromise" the levels between digi terr and sat.

It's still possible to futher band-limit fm aerial output, by adding a special fm bandpass filter - before the combiner! - although that means even more expense! See: www.jwhardy.co.uk , go tuned rf components, scroll down (band4/5 bandpass filters commonplace, band 2 are rarer!).

Best would be to identify the interference source! Radio transmitters are usually "bursty", constant interference suggests nearby electrical equipment. Unwanted induction along cable outers is sometimes possible - defeating the screening - but mainly from just the fm aerial suggests it isn't induction.
 
H

handyman 44

Regular Member
Messages
141
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
sky digibox also technomate tm 1000 ci
motorised 80 cm dish
My Location
norwich "up the city" down the ipswich
#16
thanks for your reply spiney im glad i had a go the person i was doing it for was well pleased as the are only viewing sat and digital tv a warning to all other newbies having a go at this kind of installation get as much infomation before starting the job and dont skimp on the equipment . acording to the instruction it seems a quite simple installation which could well be the case .its when the thing dont work thats when it becomes complicated thans every one
 
S

spiney

Guest
Messages
1,514
Likes
1
My Satellite Setup
Pace 2200 Sky digibox with ftv card, Comag SL65 FTA sat receiver, 40cm Sky minidish, Setpal terrestrial receiver (for free uk tv only!).
My Location
Midlands
#17
Handyman 44, you're welcome, sounds like you're reasonably happy now.

Yes, quite right, connecting bits together is reasonably easy, but then if it doesn't work you get that "sinking feeling" .......

Sorry you had to buy another multiswitch, I'll add a warning on another thread.

Fortunately, despite some peculiar postings in newsgroups, such problems are rare, reception difficulties are mainly people trying to get DTT or sat outside the transmitter "range".

PS, I thought your multiswitch installation was in a private house, but if in a "public building" then make sure there's safety earthing according to IEE wiring regulations!
 
Mike4t

Mike4t

Member
Messages
39
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
Solid 2.4M C120 Invacom0.03db twin, ADF120 Feedhorn, Pace2600 & Pace DS430N. SKY package exc Sports
My Location
Costa Blanca
#18
Hi Spiney, Found your guide excellent reading, I am in a very similar position to Handyman, in that I want to take my Sat sig to 6 Rooms,, I currently have a quad to 4 boxes and that works fine,,, However I want to move up to 10 Inputs ( including a couple of HD boxes), My percieved problem (I havent started on the project yet) would be that I am in the Black hole of Murcia, wherein Sky reception can be very poor,, ( I have just upgraded to a Solid 2.4m dish which has made a tremendous difference in channels received), However I am a little concerned as to the Sig losses during the splitting process,, can you recommend the best Multiswitch for least loss, not to worried about whether its mains or box powered, just really want to put in the best I can afford rather than have women problems over the soaps etc!!
 
rolfw

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
37,727
Likes
1,291
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#19
Have a look at the Philips range, also Hirschmann produce top end multiswitches, have used both and produced excellent results. :)
 
Mike4t

Mike4t

Member
Messages
39
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
Solid 2.4M C120 Invacom0.03db twin, ADF120 Feedhorn, Pace2600 & Pace DS430N. SKY package exc Sports
My Location
Costa Blanca
#20
Thanks, will check it out
 
Top