Global Warming Debate

rolfw

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#1
Found the programme on Channel 4 last week very interesting, it is apparently to be repeated on More4 on monday night 10pm.

I have never fully subscribed to the new religion of man made global disaster, although do believe that it is in our interest to reduce resource consumption and create less polution.

What I have been concerned with though, is the vilification of any scientist who dares to suggest that there may be also natural/historical factors causing global warming in contradiction to the dogma of man made global doom.

I can bring parallels with those in earlier centuries who suggested that creationist teachings were incorrect and man evolved from beast, that the stars did not revolve around the Earth. Now, scientists who do not toe the man made global warming line are accused of being cronies of the oil companies or heavy industry, or worse, phonies, fools, or mad.

When scientists start closing their ears to information that doesn't support their credo, science becomes a sham.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2026091,00.html

PS. I know that members are going to have some strong views on this, but any inappropriate posts will be removed. Please play nicely. :)
 

Rob

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#2
I saw the same programme and it does make you wonder, as some of the claims are almost a million miles away from what is being said now about Gobal Warming.

Will have to do some homework on this but I must admit I also have my doubt's about GW.

PS: It does seem at the moment that it is either all black or all white with no shades of grey.
 

2cvbloke

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#3
All I know is people should stop buying gas-guzzlers, or Chelsea tractors or whatever you want to call cars with an engine capacity larger than 2 Litres...

I saw something a few months back about global cooling, where the pollution from factories, vehicles & aircraft are creating a "blanket" over the Earth which is actually cooling the Earth down in hot places and warming in the cold places, and the evidence of this was made obvious on sept. 11th when all aircraft were grounded in the US, so one idea is that if we completely stop burning fossil fuels, the Earth will, not could, will, dramatically heat up. As for the CO2 problems, all we need to do is just gradually stop using them, not just go cold turkey, and hopefully the Earth should clean up and be back to it's old weather patterns that it used to be in before we started digging for coal, oil and gas...

There's also the thing about importing food to different countries, big cargo ships also add to the pollution, so if we stopped buying foreign food and bought more local produce, that would also help the environment...

But the way the big companies work I doubt it'll happen before the planet is doomed... :-doh2
 

dig deep

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#4
As sahara been a nice place with lakes and rivers and now turned into a desert, looong time before we started our first car

I simply don´t trust them:-Nooo
 
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#5
Anyone needing first hand information with respect to global warming can always talk to anyone living on the Arctic Coast as it is no longer a questionable issue. Much like the Ozone layers, especially above the Antarctic which has a big hole in it, the Arctic coastline of Canada and Russia have much longer periods between freeze ups causing a great concern for polar bears who have to wait longer to get onto the ice. I believe David Suzuki has made some strong points to consider with respect to global warming and I'm sure he has a very unbiased opinion.
 

Yeshi

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#6
I was up scotland this weekend, i saw an artical in the Scottish Sun, which i found amusing.

Anyway it said that by 2071 sun worshippers will be flooding to scotland for a tan instead of spain because it will simp,y be too hot.

Now me personally think global warming isnt caused by dirty fuels. i agree its a natural cycle.

However i was on my way home passing through cumbria, (yes burning fuel but who cares) i noticed only a few tree's, it it was us causing the global warming wouldnt it be feesable to restore the trees to their former glory?? and we dont have to stop there.. The amazon, if they dont stop chopping it down i should think this planet will be a lonely place, well we'd be lonely when theres only humans, cats and dogs who walk the earth...
 

2cvbloke

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#7
Yeshi said:
The amazon, if they dont stop chopping it down i should think this planet will be a lonely place, well we'd be lonely when theres only humans, cats and dogs who walk the earth...
You're forgetting, they're the "lungs" of the earth, without them, we die from lack of oxygen... :rolleyes:
 

PoloMint

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#8
The current talk of global warming not being man made seems to be media frenzy over a good story, rather than actual science.

It's newspapers, not peer reviewed scientific journals that publish stories about global warming being natural.

As evidence for this, take a look at the link below. Science magazine (one of the most prestigious scientific journals around) analysed peer-reviewed scientific papers on global warming. A complete study of all papers covering the topic of global climate change published in respected journals from 1993-2003 - 928 in total. Not one challenged the claim that the global warming is happening, or that it is man made.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

That study was a few years ago (Dec 2004) and a couple have been published since then, mostly in out of context journals or have since been retracted.

Now you could argue that someone writing a paper saying global warming is natural wouldn't get it published in a peer reviewed journal because no one would review it and say it was worth publishing. But that is unlikely, reviewers review on scientific merit, not if they agree on the conclusions, and say why the science or deductions are flawed if they recommend that it's not published.

Science journals want reports that will get their journal noticed, like every other type of media, a report that says global warming is not a result of man made pollution is undoubtedly going to be popular just through its controversy. However scientific journals also want good science, they have a reputation that depends on it, something newspapers aren't so concerned with, and so the scientific merit of reports is reviewed before it is published.

The scientists agree that global warming exists and is the result of man made pollution. Claims that scientists don't agree causes doubt and gives support to the view that perhaps we shouldn't spend time or money on finding a solution.

There are still scientists that think AIDS is not caused by HIV, but they don't get published in peer reviewed journals.
 

Rob

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#9
Read this on a forum and found it interesting so I "nicked" it as the writer puts his case a lot better than I can.

it was interesting to see the co founder of Green peace stating when when did polution from cars and power stations get muddled with global warming??

Also it was very interesting that from ice core samples going back to the last ice age (just over 10,000 years ago) there was actualy more CO2 in the atmosphere than there is now. from my history books i dont remember the combsution engine and the industrial age starting then? let alone coal, gas or oil being burnt.

Also you need CO2 in the atmosphere. without it we would be in a permanent iceage ie the suns rays would bounce back out into space. CO2 makes this planet habitable!!

i note another very interesting fact on global warming.

Many millions of years back when dinosaurs inhabited the earth. have a guess where some of them lived??

Antartica!

Proof we live in a much colder climate now.

Also we are told that sea levels will rise. yes but it was made quite clear that this could take hundreds of years. remember the sea is warm for only a few metres at the surface where sun penetrates. in the depths it is icy cold.

other cuplrites we are told is the sea itself!!

Oh and how did the sun escape not being a culprit!!

I have an "O" level in Environmental Studies. Yes we touched on global warming in the 80's. However the main concern was what burning fossil fuels had on the environment. remember acid rain?

It would seem some of the comentators passing themseveles as scientists who have predicted doom and gloom for mankind have not a clue on how the climate actually works!!!

The UK Government report was not even written by an expert in climate change!

Methinks El Presidente Tony Blair asked a civil servant to think of a way to rake in extra taxes.

Interesting anyone remember a film called "The day after tomorrow"? What did it predict??

The next ice age.

In the seventies we were being told that a next ice age is over due and that there are signs it is about to start.

Perhaps this is a precursor to it??

There is also an important thung we need to look. I refer back to my "O" level . Interestingly we were told that oil wells would run dry at the end of 2020. For such a small period of time this cannot have had such an inpact on the earths climate. if anything CO2 emissions will fall.

After 2020 what will be the next scam from government??

I also refer back to a posting i made earlier in feb.

during medievil time grapes were grown as far as Durham. What followed this global warming then??

A mini ice age!

get your woolies out!

interstingly there is more ice forming at both poles than at anytime in history. this does not equat with global warming.

it even seems alughable where are told that the glaciers in both poles are melting. yes they have been ever since they formed! it is in their nature to do so. what do big chunks fall from them in the first place?? er gravity! ie the ice at the top of the glacier places force to move the ice downwards. simple as that!

the comment made about the scientists who appear on the international panel on climate change in the C4 program. the scientists involved sued to have their names removed from the report. of course they will sit on teh panel they need to put their point across. when tey put therei point across it was doctored to make it look like we are in a meltdown over global warming.

what we need is an informed inteligent debate on what is going on.

what we dont need is being silenced on actually what is happening.

A present the excuse that CO2 is the culprit is not based on scientific fact.

i have no problem with buying products that do not harm or poison the environmnt that has to be good for us all in the long run.

But to be taxed for no reason at all is down right outrageous and an affront to democracy!
 

PoloMint

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#10
Not sure where you got that Rob, but he/she has no references to back up any claims.

Eg the mention of ice core samples, what he/she says goes against what others have currently shown. Which is that ice core sampling goes back 600,000 years and shows CO2 to be higher now than it ever has been in that time period, the same for temperature.

Also new finds of oil extend the oil reserves well beyond 2020.

He/She calls for "informed inteligent debate on what is going on", yet does not provide it, instead giving misinformation and out of date facts.
 

rolfw

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#11
It is not uncommon for people to use data for which there is no reference quoted PM, it happens equally as much on the other side of the discussion.

This is an interesting article in the Telegraph,

Telegraph said:
Scientists threatened for 'climate denial'

By Tom Harper, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:24am GMT 11/03/2007

Scientists who questioned mankind's impact on climate change have received death threats and claim to have been shunned by the scientific community.

They say the debate on global warming has been "hijacked" by a powerful alliance of politicians, scientists and environmentalists who have stifled all questioning about the true environmental impact of carbon dioxide emissions.

Timothy Ball, a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg in Canada, has received five deaths threats by email since raising concerns about the degree to which man was affecting climate change.
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One of the emails warned that, if he continued to speak out, he would not live to see further global warming.

"Western governments have pumped billions of dollars into careers and institutes and they feel threatened," said the professor.

"I can tolerate being called a sceptic because all scientists should be sceptics, but then they started calling us deniers, with all the connotations of the Holocaust. That is an obscenity. It has got really nasty and personal."
 

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#12
It's not uncommon, but it's also not a scientific argument unless opinions/claims are backed up with references to studies and data.

The ice core sampling work I was talking about was published in the journal Science within the last few years. I can look up the exact reference if wanted, but don't have it to hand. Unless whoever claims that CO2 levels have been higher than they are now has some sort of substantiated evidence from a decent source then it carries no weight.

As for the death threats - appalling. When they got into that field of work the I imagine the scientists would never have thought it would come to this.
 

wolfav

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#13
well nice debate but it,s going too deep for me so i was just wondering if what i heard was true within 4 years we are going to lose the old faithfull light bulb for the new low energy ones (which i have a few of cost more money and blow a lot quicker in my expirience )?
also that they are thinking of getting rid of stand by buttons (which to me is for the bone idle who can,t be bothered to turn the damned set of)?
 

PoloMint

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#14
Yes, well the lightbulb part, not sure about standby buttons. Europe (and australia I believe) plan to ban normal filament lightbulbs within a few years. They will still be allowed for fridges and ovens and equipment that 'needs' them, but not for general use. Well that's the plan.

Discussed here
 

PaulR

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#15
PoloMint said:
They will still be allowed for fridges and ovens and equipment that 'needs' them, but not for general use. Well that's the plan.
Will that include my Lightbulb heated honey warmer I wonder? Lightbulbs are also used to hatch chicken eggs I believe. Some damn cold eggs coming up they are replaced with low-energy bulbs! :D
 

PoloMint

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#16
Things that use lightbulbs for heat might be quite efficient. I've never seen a honey warmer.

Not sure how this is going to be done, but if it's the way environmental things often are then normal bulbs will may still be available, just really expensive duties on them to persuade you to buy others. Like with the refrigerant gas R12 in the states (CFC-12) - a canister now sells for $350+, 15 years ago you could buy the same one for ~$30. Plus you need a licence to buy it now.

I can see a blackmarket trade in lighbulbs, something else I would never have predicted.
 

rolfw

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#17
PoloMint said:
I can see a blackmarket trade in lighbulbs, something else I would never have predicted.
Better get my stripey spiv suit out of mothballs then. :)
 

wolfav

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#18
they are saying their is a rise in home grown maryjoana in the uk these special light bulbs might be worth investing in;) supply and demand could see a good return and i thought the news was full of crap :toke:
sorry never thought i,d see that smiley being used :-rofl2
 

Rob

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#19
Saw this last night on UKTV Documentary channel it was a "Horizon" programme by the BBC in which they claimed that the Earth was completely frozen over 600 million years ago.

It seems that 600 million years ago that the whole of the planet was covered in ice for 10 million years, and the planet was saved from staying that way because of volcano's.

It was only when the eruptions sent the C02 levels to 10 per cent (note Polo mint) and temperatures to 40c was it warm enough to melt all the ice.
I'm not saying if all this is true or not, I'm not that clever but it was backed up with a lot of "facts", and some scientists not newspaper people.

Also one question, it is claimed that the prescent C02 level is under 1 per cent, can someone tell me the correct level, for example is it 0.01 per cent.

Thanks
Rob
 

Rob

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#20
This is for the people who were unable to see the programme "The Great Global Warning Swindle". Click on link below, or cut & paste.

The Great Global Warning Swindle

Then click on video link.
 
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