How to record a "real mpeg compliant TS"

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mrdutchpl

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#1
I'm new here, hello to all !.

I have a DB and am installing the dish so no real time to figure out the following myself:-

The DB7000 seems to be recording "transport streams". This is in my opinion a misleading name/format.

A real MPEG2-transport stream is the digital data received from the frontend/tuner. It contains multiple audio and videostreams and has a typical rate of 4-5 MByte per second, depending on the symbolrate and FEC rate of the transponder. Clearly this is not the stream recorded on the HD since it would result in 18GByte/hour.
There are different option in which the data is stored on the disk:
- MPEG elementary stream (ES), A/V muxed
- Packetised ES, A/V muxed
- Only the relevant transport packages (read PIDs) from the TS.
Who knows the answer ?

I am mostly interested in recording the full TS, is this possible and is a tool available for this ?. I have equipment to stream this over a network again.

Secondly, are tools available to gather all the statistics of the transport stream. I imagine there are plugins for this.
 
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chuckles

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#2
Using NGRAB and Ngrab Streaming server will record in Mp2 format. Is that what you need?
 
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mrdutchpl

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#3
Thanks for the feedback. No, I don't want the MP2, I want the datastream that comes from the tuner. This is the real transport stream that enters the descrambler/demultiplexer. Compared to MP2, it contains multiple A/V streams.
 
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haggard

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#5
mrdutchpl said:
I'm new here, hello to all !.


A real MPEG2-transport stream is the digital data received from the frontend/tuner. It contains multiple audio and videostreams and has a typical rate of 4-5 MByte per second, depending on the symbolrate and FEC rate of the transponder. Clearly this is not the stream recorded on the HD since it would result in 18GByte/hour.
There are different option in which the data is stored on the disk:
- MPEG elementary stream (ES), A/V muxed
- Packetised ES, A/V muxed
- Only the relevant transport packages (read PIDs) from the TS.
Who knows the answer ?
The answer is simple mrdutchpl.
The transport stream can be 4 megabits per sec (4 Mbps) not megabytes which are 8 times bigger (8 bits = 1 byte).
So your stream at 4 Mbps = 0.5 MB per sec gives you 30 MB per min or 1.8 GB which is about right . . . . .
 
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haggard

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7000S - 300GB Maxtor
1GB USB -
Syslink wifi bridge from DB to Syslink wifi router to Apple Extreme streaming relay to Apple G5, 2 xG4.
Elgato into G4 17 in for Apple DVB-T captures.
Panasonic 42 HD ready
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#6
mrdutchpl said:
I'm new here, hello to all !.


I am mostly interested in recording the full TS, is this possible and is a tool available for this ?. I have equipment to stream this over a network again.

Secondly, are tools available to gather all the statistics of the transport stream. I imagine there are plugins for this.
Start your web browser
Dial up yr DB IP (e.g. 192.168.0.24)
zap -> provider -> channel
click the yellow button "stream info"
and there's yr stream info, not much I agree.

Record to hdd
ship file or files to PC
get PVA strumento
rename files .ts.001 .ts.002 etc (in right order)
select them in PVAstrumento
and make a PS (program stream from the TS) or demux
depending on the provider, you will then get a plethora of files
hopefully one video and all the audio tracks
Choose the one you want and make DV or whatever.

Incidentally, the .ts you record on hdd is the digital stream that left entered the TX, but with TX and RX errors corrected in the receiver - except for dropouts which drop out.
You wouldnt want the 4.2.2 stream off the camera or digi beta since it is running at tens of Mbps.
Very few people can see the difference between 4.2.2 and mpeg2 on a profi monitor and there is no visible difference on a domestic screen. The motion pictures expert group (= mpeg) did a hell of good job on the 10x compression. Lossy, but invisible loss.


BTW What are you using to stream?
I find VLC (videolan) crashes XP in a horrible way.
Most stable way for me so far is using Firefox and VLC on a Mac (G4 tit) which I play out to a 21 inch LCD in my study.
 
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mrdutchpl

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#7
people, thanks for all the answers but I don't think you understand my problem, nor the full DVB system. A transponder / single satellite frequency transmits at a certain bitrate, close to 4-5 MByte/sec. The simplified calculation is as follows: symbolrate = 22-27 MSymbol / sec. Using QPSK modulation (= two bits per symbol) = 44-54 MBit/sec. Reduce this by the FEC (error correction) overhead and divide by 8 and you have the 4-5 MByte/sec. Again, this contains multiple A/V streams. A single A/V stream can be between 4-6 MBit/sec, depending on the broadcast quality.
What I want is the transport stream at full rate, as is received from the tuner by the demux. After the demux, a part of that stream (Audio + video PID) is written to disk.
Maybe I need to do some development myself... ?.
 
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RedDevil_UK

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#8
as far as i know, you cant get the video stream in its raw uncompressed format, when the dreambox was created, the makers didnt think people had a use for it, so its compressed to make it more manageable.

why do you want the data in that format anyway? as haggard says, the quality of the TS file is pretty good as it is.

i stream my picture to my PC using IE and VLC no problems and the quality is good.
as for converting TS files to DVD see the sticky thread at top of this section.
 
BGonaSTICK

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#9
An interesting thread, but what made you think that you could capture the raw transponder output on a domestic receiver? If this was a requirement that you had, maybe you should have investigated the possibilities before purchasing?

I can't see that many people would want to do this.

As for the subsequent re-streaming of the individual A/V signals, yes that's perfectly possible with the existing plugins.

As I'm sure you're aware, the recorded mpg2 stream is of the same format and resolution as the transmitted A/V with no loss of quality whatsoever.
 
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haggard

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7000S - 300GB Maxtor
1GB USB -
Syslink wifi bridge from DB to Syslink wifi router to Apple Extreme streaming relay to Apple G5, 2 xG4.
Elgato into G4 17 in for Apple DVB-T captures.
Panasonic 42 HD ready
My Location
NW England
#10
mrdutchpl said:
people, thanks for all the answers but I don't think you understand my problem, nor the full DVB system. A transponder / single satellite frequency transmits at a certain bitrate, close to 4-5 MByte/sec. The simplified calculation is as follows: symbolrate = 22-27 MSymbol / sec. Using QPSK modulation (= two bits per symbol) = 44-54 MBit/sec. Reduce this by the FEC (error correction) overhead and divide by 8 and you have the 4-5 MByte/sec. Again, this contains multiple A/V streams. A single A/V stream can be between 4-6 MBit/sec, depending on the broadcast quality.
What I want is the transport stream at full rate, as is received from the tuner by the demux. After the demux, a part of that stream (Audio + video PID) is written to disk.
Maybe I need to do some development myself... ?.
Yes, dutch,
It was the sheer unexpectedness of your needs that threw me. And I wonder what the domestic purpose for wanting that would be. I guess it would be nice to have the whole (e.g. Kiosk) mux for people in different rooms to pick and choose. I am pretty sure no domestic reciever will do anything except strip the particular mux 'channel' you select for onward shipping thru the receiver., apart from tasks like DB where you can record one sub-component and watch another.
Again, just guessing, a mux is probably unique to a particular transponder and I would be suprised if the same mux mix were then shipped up to another transponder, although you never know. It wouldnt surprise me if there were DTT receivers at relay stations that then rebroadcast the whole mux (or even all 4 of them) to places out of sight of main transmitter. Such a receiver/transmitter would need to do what you want because it would transmit on a different frequency than it received. I suspect you are on your own on this one.
 
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mrdutchpl

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#11
All, happy to be understood !. The use would not be completely domestic. I thought it would be a great way to capture a stream and be able to play it back using professional streaming equipment. W're short of a usual rather expensive tuner that can capture streams. Broadcast would be in a local lab-environment using QAM and QPSK modulators. Being able to do so and analyse a broadcast later greatly improves development. The analysis should still be possible in realtime though.
If I ever find a solution, I'll post it here. The beginners/idiots guide is a great help to get things going though !.
 
gameboy

gameboy

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#12
mrdutchpl said:
If I ever find a solution, I'll post it here. The beginners/idiots guide is a great help to get things going though !.
I think you will find a solution, but not with the DreamBox...

You could try the professional equipment the broadcasters use but that will be a lot more expensive.

Good luck.
 
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td03-5

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#13
I expect a SkyStar 2 does it and it's much cheaper than a Dreambox!
 
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wallycharlo

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#14
haggard, after i rename the files to .001 , .002 etc, i then use a tool called hjsplit to join them all into one .ts file before i import into PVA. from your description it seems that i dont need this step?

ok, i see in ur giude now that you do in fact use hjsplit guess u just omitted it in the post to this forum.

ahhhhh, and i also see now that i asked this very q ages ago and stick answered it !!

so ignore this post completely, i should not get up so early on sunday!
 
BGonaSTICK

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#15
td03-5 said:
I expect a SkyStar 2 does it and it's much cheaper than a Dreambox!
Nope..... O-no

I don't know of anything (domesticly speaking) that does it.
 
BGonaSTICK

BGonaSTICK

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#16
wallycharlo said:
haggard, after i rename the files to .001 , .002 etc, i then use a tool called hjsplit to join them all into one .ts file before i import into PVA. from your description it seems that i dont need this step?

ok, i see in ur giude now that you do in fact use hjsplit guess u just omitted it in the post to this forum.

ahhhhh, and i also see now that i asked this very q ages ago and stick answered it !!

so ignore this post completely, i should not get up so early on sunday!
Have a lie-in next week m8 :)
 
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haggard

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My Satellite Setup
7000S - 300GB Maxtor
1GB USB -
Syslink wifi bridge from DB to Syslink wifi router to Apple Extreme streaming relay to Apple G5, 2 xG4.
Elgato into G4 17 in for Apple DVB-T captures.
Panasonic 42 HD ready
My Location
NW England
#17
wallycharlo said:
haggard, after i rename the files to .001 , .002 etc, i then use a tool called hjsplit to join them all into one .ts file before i import into PVA. from your description it seems that i dont need this step?

ok, i see in ur giude now that you do in fact use hjsplit guess u just omitted it in the post to this forum.

ahhhhh, and i also see now that i asked this very q ages ago and stick answered it !!

so ignore this post completely, i should not get up so early on sunday!
Wally, wrong thread as well!
This topic has just reopened in the sticky above, where I answer your question with new info.
 
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wallycharlo

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#18
haggard said:
Wally, wrong thread as well!
This topic has just reopened in the sticky above, where I answer your question with new info.
brain is not in gear today :)

cheers for the new info
 
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