Is a UPS really helpful?

A

Archive7

Guest
We had a sudden power cut yesterday afternoon in the Tel Aviv area which lasted for about two hours.
I got a few seconds of power cut that shut down my PC and then the power came back after a short while but the PC wouldn't start and was beeping like hell so I switched off the power supply main switch, waited for about 20 minutes and then the PC worked as normal.
Traffic lights didn't work for two hours. in the already congested Tel Aviv traffic.
I took this as a final warning and thought it is about time I had a UPS just in case.
After consulting with a friend who was against the idea of spending money on a UPS, I went out and bought a suitable UPS which is supposed to have a 15 minutes running in battery mode.
I am thinking maybe I can add a small fan that doesn't need too much power and also a LED table lamp just in case a power cut happens at night.

Do you think a UPS is a must have unit and did it help you in any way in the past?
 

s-band

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
1,186
Reaction score
1,843
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
1.5m IRTE PF, Octagon OSLO external Ref., TBS6983,
Various L, S, C, X & Ka bits. 1.2m S/X/Ku/Ka Prodelin on Az-El (being refurbished)
My Location
Essex
I've had a 3kVA UPS on computers, phone stuff and some lights for a long time. The server shuts down gracefully when the batteries are exhausted and it gives me time to shut everything else down manually. The power here is via overhead lines through trees and we have lost it for a few days in the past. Since the lines were replaced it has been much better but we can lose power for minutes to an hour or 2 a few times/year. We also often get momentary drops during lightning storms. The UPS also irons out the messy mains from a generator and spikes on the mains line.

So, yes, the UPS has helped a lot.
 
A

Archive7

Guest
Thanks a lot.
Do you know of any reason for not powering a small fan off the UPS during a power cut?
I am thinking of using a 7 inch fan that I have which is rated 25 watts. That can help me to cool down for about 30 minutes at least, when the PC and monitor are completely off.
 

s-band

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
1,186
Reaction score
1,843
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
1.5m IRTE PF, Octagon OSLO external Ref., TBS6983,
Various L, S, C, X & Ka bits. 1.2m S/X/Ku/Ka Prodelin on Az-El (being refurbished)
My Location
Essex
Thanks a lot.
Do you know of any reason for not powering a small fan off the UPS during a power cut?
I am thinking of using a 7 inch fan that I have which is rated 25 watts. That can help me to cool down for about 30 minutes at least, when the PC and monitor are completely off.
I'm not sure how motors behave if the UPS is not sine wave. I have no problems running the central heating pump from the UPS but mine is sine wave. Non-inverter A/C, fridges etc don't go well with a small UPS due to the switch-on surge current. The 3.5kVA generator coughs when the freezer starts. Try it and see what happens?
 

Tururu

Assembled with recycled parts
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,849
Reaction score
964
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
Si el ventilador es de corriente continua (12 voltios) no hay problema.
Si es de 230Voltios corriente alterna, depende de tipo de motor.
Cuidado, puede que funcione, pero se calienta mas de lo normal y gira mas despacio.
Todos funcionan bien con sinusoide pura, pero en los sai/UPS baratos es sinusoide cuadrada y/o modificada y no les gusta a muchos motores.
Los compresores de los frigorificos al estar en carga tienen un pico de arranque que puede tripicar el consumo durante unos segundos (400x3=1200), aparte de ser un consumo inductivo, que ya jode.

El generador 3.5kVA tose cuando se inicia el congelador.
Un generador inverter, de 1Kw no tiene problemas con los frigorificos, el generador normal (potencia real a medio gas 50%), como dices, suele toser.:-doh
------------
If the fan is DC (12 volts) no problem.
If it is 230 volt AC, depending on engine type.
Care, might work, but warms more than usual and rotates more slowly.
All work well with pure sine wave, but the sai / Cheap UPS is square and/or modified sine wave and do not like many engines.

The refrigeration compressors being in peak load have a boot that can tripicar consumption for a few seconds (400x3 = 1200), apart from being an inductive consumption, which already sucks.

The 3.5kVA generator coughs when the freezer starts.:-doh
An inverter generator, 1 kW have no problems with fridges, normal generator (real medium gas 50% power), as you say, usually they cough.

De Solener.com
ondas.gif
 

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,246
Reaction score
1,932
Points
113
Age
82
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
I've used UPS systems for many years, on all my electronics, TV, home entertainment system and house hold item like one or two lights and the refrigerator, get a true signwave output UPS, it has less problems with motors and such, and the bigger you go in the VA rating the longer your up and running.

Mine have external battery piles, I use AGM battery's setup in what ever voltage the UPS needs for an input, you can stack them for more run time, (mine will go for 3 days or so) however the UPS must be able to re-charge them in a far amount of time.

If you use a UPS rated at 1200 VA it will not be able to re-charge a big battery pile (100 amp hours or more) as the internal charging circuit is not big enough amperage wise to do so, so I use a stand alone chaging system to do this, you can get 12, 24 and 36 volt chargers for the battery pile that can supply 20 to 50 amps or more and can charge several piles at once once the power comes back up.

I am working on one that also uses solar as a recharge source.

There are many many options, it all depends on the size of your pocket book, do you want to spend several thousand to watch TV or run the fridge when the lights are out?

If so then take a look at the link below, you can get a UPS system with stack on battery piles to do what you need to do for as long as you think your going to be without power.

Code:
http://www.schneider-electric.com/en/product-category/8000-uninterruptible-power-supply--ups-/
 
A

Archive4

Guest
I've used UPS systems for many years, on all my electronics, TV, home entertainment system and house hold item like one or two lights and the refrigerator, get a true signwave output UPS, it has less problems with motors and such, and the bigger you go in the VA rating the longer your up and running.

Mine have external battery piles, I use AGM battery's setup in what ever voltage the UPS needs for an input, you can stack them for more run time, (mine will go for 3 days or so) however the UPS must be able to re-charge them in a far amount of time.

If you use a UPS rated at 1200 VA it will not be able to re-charge a big battery pile (100 amp hours or more) as the internal charging circuit is not big enough amperage wise to do so, so I use a stand alone chaging system to do this, you can get 12, 24 and 36 volt chargers for the battery pile that can supply 20 to 50 amps or more and can charge several piles at once once the power comes back up.

I am working on one that also uses solar as a recharge source.

There are many many options, it all depends on the size of your pocket book, do you want to spend several thousand to watch TV or run the fridge when the lights are out?

If so then take a look at the link below, you can get a UPS system with stack on battery piles to do what you need to do for as long as you think your going to be without power.

Code:
http://www.schneider-electric.com/en/product-category/8000-uninterruptible-power-supply--ups-/

Once again, it would appear , we have been separated by the same language:(

English version of piles

piles
pʌɪlz/

noun
  1. haemorrhoids.
:-lmao:-lmao:-lmao
 
A

Archive7

Guest
Actually Battery in French is also called piles. Perhaps this is how it originated in the USA.
 
A

Archive7

Guest
@Terryl
Thanks for your lengthy reply. Very informative.
My needs are quite modest. Just to protect my PC from power surges and power cuts like we had yesterday.
I bought a UPS rated 480 Watts and it can supply power for about 10-15 minutes.
I am not happy about the fact that it doesn't have an inside fan and it gets a bit too warm.
Switched it off for about an hour but it didn't cool down.
Maybe I will use an external fan to cool it down during operation.
 

Vipersan

Emmett Browns Ghost
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
10,918
Reaction score
6,663
Points
113
Age
66
My Satellite Setup
IP9000HD +
TD110 Dish and TD88 Dish in Tandem
66°East to 60°West.
AZbox PrmHD + OpnbxS9HD + Skybox + DrHD F15
2x VboxII AZ-EL
2 m+ Alcoa PF + BSC421 C-Band lnbf...
+SS2/TwHnS2-3200 pci/TBS6925 pci
1.5 Fortec Star -Gbox - HtoH Ku/Ka/C
My Location
UK
I now have 2 ..
one to run my server ..and one to run the main pc ..router and monitor ...
I've done major damage and lost expensive hard drives in the past due to abrupt power cuts..
Now I can let the server down gently..
Only used them twice since I got em ...but saved me money and many hours de-fragging my linux based server...(FreeNas) ...
rgds
VS
 
Last edited:

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
3,246
Reaction score
1,932
Points
113
Age
82
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
You can get a device called a "Kill a Watt" meter that will see how many watts your system is running, then you can tell how may watts a UPS should be rated for if you need to finish up that big project.

They have them for international power systems, here is one for the UK.

Code:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Buy-UK-Power-Meter.htm

It will measure in VA, this will give you an idea on how large a system would be needed, I go by the 3 to 1 ratio, so if you need 500 VA to run your system then a 1500 VA UPS will give you all the power you need to complete that data or finish up that program.

Like I said in my post above my UPS for my entertainment center will let me watch TV, my DVR or satellite for several days if needed, as the power goes out here quit often and for long periods of time, once it went out for 4 days as a main tower went down and also took out the big transformers.

I also have a 6500 watt generator if needed, it can recharge the UPS systems if I need to longer.

A company called Triplite offers attached equipment insurance for their UPS systems, if something like a power surge gets by their system and takes out your equipment you get new stuff. (if registered with them)
 
A

Archive7

Guest
@Terryl
Thanks again for the info.
Looks like you have covered all possibilities.
We have plenty of sunshine here in Israel, but very few households install solar systems because of the government bureaucracy which is a great pity. Most apartments install a solar water system on the roof which is really a waste of money because if they use the same footprint on the roof to install a solar system, they would get 10 times the electricity power they save on their stupid solar water system. I don't have a solar water system on principle because it looks ugly and if there is a water leak you wouldn't know until you get the water bill after two months.

solar-water-heaters-on-roof.jpg
 

2cvbloke

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
9,768
Reaction score
1,808
Points
113
Age
38
My Satellite Setup
No satellite stuff for the moment (aside from a 43cm minidish that was on the house already), Samsung SyncMaster T27B550 Smart TV & Monitor, and a few computers...
My Location
Near Pontop Pike, Co. Durham
I have four UPS units (only three in use though), Two Tripp Lites, a Trust (that arrived smashed, but with a lot of glue & zip-ties, I rebuilt it) and a Belkin, can't recall their ratings off the top of my head though...

The Trust is hooked up to my lamps and my TV, the larger Tripp Lite to my media server-come-IPCam recorder and my gaming PC, and the smaller Tripp Lite is running my networking (bar the FTTC modem downstairs, may get another small UPS to use on that), the Belkin I don't really use as a UPS, it's noisy and to be honest it runs out of juice too quickly despite containing the same spec batteries as the larger Tripp Lite...

So the Belkin UPS I just use as a self-contained inverter power supply to run the lights out in the back shed when I'm tinkering with stuff out there, usually get a couple of hours out of it running 2x 10w LED floods and a twin fluorescent fitting with a pair of 9w LED tubes, even managed to run a washing machine off it briefly, but the washer's motor sounded extremely angry with the modified sine wave output... :)
 
A

Archive7

Guest
The UPS that I bought gets quite warm and the plastic casing smells awful after a few hours.
It feels too warm even without load.
I decided not to take any chances in these hot days and dismantled all the wiring and went back to a NO UPS system.
I might use it during winter to protect my PC from lightening and it won't get warm then.
I probably was a little bit hasty and didn't choose a better UPS make such as APC.
Thanks guys for all your replies. Quite informative.
 

Tururu

Assembled with recycled parts
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,849
Reaction score
964
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
Veo que nadie indica un tema importante segun el tipo de SAI utilizado o eso pienso yo.

Si quieres proteger la instalacion de subidas, bajadas de tension, microcortes y caidas de rayos en las lineas electricas, necesitas un SAI con doble convertidor, independientemente a la potencia/autonomia que necesites (son los que usamos normalmente en mi trabajo), son caros, pero buenos.
Los SAI on-line, actualmente se llaman SAI con doble convertidor, para diferenciar bien.

Red electrica 230Vca ==> Baterias ==> convertidor a 230Vca.

Estos equipos dan proteccion al 100% contra estas fluctuaciones/problemas.
Los convertidores estan dimensionados para trabajar al 100%, con su propia ventilacion controlada por la temperatura que tenga, trabajando las 24Horas.
Normalmente por encima de 1200VA (incluidos) tienen conectores para baterias externas y ampliar el tiempo de autonomia.

Tienes SAI interactivas (on-line interactiva) que valen la mitad, muy baratas verdad? el truco es, si tienes alimentacion de compania (230VCA) entra directamente al equipo que protege, pasa por filtros supresores RFI y por un autotransformador controlado electronicamente para amortiguar las subidas y bajadas de tension.

De los pequeños no puedo opinar sobre su comportamiento, de los modelos de 5KVA-10KVA de APC, si las fluctuaciones se salen de los ajustes al esceder sus limites, el equipo hace bypass automaticamente, se protege del problema, claro que el equipo al que protege lo deja con el culo al aire.
Incluso el analizador de armonicos y otras perturbaciones que tenia conectado se bloqueo, al meter picos superiores al hacer bypass de los que tenia la red originalmente.

Por ultimo tenemos los SAI off-line, seguramente el que tienes, si tienes tension, esta pasa al equipo por un simple filtro RFI y un supresor de picos, cuando se va la "luz" activa un convertidor de sinusoide modificada en el mejor de los casos (nada de real), normalmente conmuta con rele (compania <==> convertidor).
Las APC de menos de 500VA que mire hace años, sinusoide cuadrada.

El convertidor no esta dimensionado para muchos minutos de funcionamiento, en el mejor de los casos 10 minutos al 50%, 5 minutos a la maxima potencia indicada.
No suelen tener ni ventilador y si esta mas tiempo encendido el convertidor al no funcionar ni al 50% (dura casi el doble la bateria), es muy normal que se calienten mucho al no estar dimensionado para trabajar tanto tiempo (olor a quemado).
------------------------------------------------------
I see no one indicates an important issue according to the type of UPS used or so I think.

If you want to protect the installation of rises, sags, notches and lightning strikes on power lines, you need a UPS with double converter, regardless of the power / autonomy you need (are those who

normally use in my work), they are expensive but good.
UPS Online, now called UPS with double converter, to differentiate well.

Baterias ==> convertidor a 230Vca. ">230Vac power grid ==> Batteries ==> 230Vac converter.

These teams provide 100% protection against these fluctuations / problems.
The inverters are designed to work at 100%, with its own temperature-controlled ventilation have, working the 24Hours.
Usually above 1200VA (included) have connectors for external batteries and extend the runtime.

You have interactive UPS (on-line interactive) worth half, very cheap right? The trick is, if you're feeding company (230VAC) directly enters the equipment it protects, it passes RFI suppression filters and for Electronically controlled autotransformer to cushion the ups and downs of tension.

Small I can not comment on their behavior, models 5KVA-10KVA APC, if the fluctuations are out of esceder adjustments to its limits, the team does bypass automatically, it protected the problem, of course the computer that protects leaves him with the ass in the air.
Even harmonic analyzer and other disturbances that had connected is blocking the upper meter peaks when you bypass that network had originally.

Finally we have the UPS off-line, surely you have, if you have stress, it goes to the team for a simple RFI filter and a surge protector, when a converter sinusoid modified at best "light" goes active convertidor). ">cases (not real), normally commutes with relay (company <==> converter).
APCs less than 500VA to look years, square sinusoid.

The drive is not dimensioned for many minutes of operation, in the best 10 minutes at 50%, 5 minutes to the maximum indicated power.
They do not usually have no fan and if more time on the drive to not operate or 50% (lasts almost twice the battery), it is very normal to much heated to not be sized to work so long (smell Burned).

Los equipos buenos no son baratos, el tema del ruido no tiene solucion, dejar los equipos donde no molesten y con buena ventilacion.
-----------------
Good teams are not cheap, the noise issue has no solution, leaving the computers where not bother with good ventilation.

PS:
a6777.gif
 
Top