Advice Needed Pro satellite meters

[pauljbl]

I usually use the spectrum first, then look at the levels..

I don't understand the use of the spectrum analyser and Constellation if you can fine tune with the tp dB level?

 

[Captain Jack]

I don't understand the use of the spectrum analyser and Constellation if you can fine tune with the tp dB level?

The answers to this very question have already been given earlier in the thread.

 

[satelliteman]

If one needs to ask how a spetrum analyser works.... it shouldn't be a buying option.

 

[vma]

Hi,

I have several professional TV field meter, including the Rover Instruments HD Touch, Deviser S7000 and S7200, Spaun Sparos 609 and 711, KWS Varos 109, etc.

The first question would be: do you want to purchase such a device for professional or amateur use?

If it is for professional use, you should consult the TV providers you most likely will end up working for. They often specify which device you need to use, in order to provide site measurements which are calibrated against everyone elses devices.

For amateur use, you must decide if it is about a one time antenna alignment or some heavy duty amateur usage, like feed hunting, antenna tuning, etc.

As an amateur I value the spectrum the most. I actually do so up to an extend, where I purchased a Siglent SSA3021X spectrum analyser and got myself a Rohde & Schwarz CRTU Universal Protocol Tester, which happens to feature a pretty good spectrum analyser for the price.

The spectrum analyser allows you to "see" what is happening on ALL frequencies at glance and in real time (if the equipment is good and the spectrum refresh rate is fast). This allows you do spot a satellite much before any tuner can actually lock the signal and tell you that you are tuning a transponder.

Also, you will be able to see feeds as they tend to show up on unusual frequencies with a narrow bandwidth, compared to regular transponders. You see that IMMEDIATLY, while otherwise it would take you minutes on a fast blind scan receiver.

Finally, all the measurments that a professional TV field meter offers, is meant to deal with strange issues. Of course, the plain 5 Euro signal strength meter will show you that there is a signal, but how do you figure out a intermittent issue with just a few transponders? How to you maximize the reception of a hard to capture satellite? Bear in mind, too, that signal strength is not the only parameter to look out for. While the constellation diagram on QPSK modulated satellite signals may have a less important role, it does allow you to minimize MER and BER issues, independantly of the signal strength.

The more information you stuck into teh modulated signal, like in 8PSK or QAM256, the more important it is to look at the constellation diagram.

With DVB-T/T2 you may want to use the ECHO measurement, which shows issues due to different antennas transmitting the same signal at the same frequency (SFN) from different distances. This can be a problem if the ECHO is out of the Guard Interval.

These are just a few quick examples.

Another reason for an amateur to get a professional meter, is the opportunity to actually learn about all this technology. I always say that a professional equipment can end up costing less than a professional training course.

Regarding the purchase of second hand devices:

1) I always recommend looking out for the Emitor Satlook Digital NIT. It is sold on eBay occasionally at ridiculous low prices (<100 Euro) and it does feature an amazing realtime spectrum and a constellation diagram.
2) Go for the Emitor Satlook Color or Color HD and get yourself a colour TFT and MPEG2 demodulator
3) Look for modernish Rover Instruments field meter. Easy rule of thumb: look out for colour screens!
4) Avoid Unaohm - they are fairly old. even the ones with a DVB logo: no MPEG demodulator, normally no constellation diagram, either. New ones are overpriced.
5) KWS Varos 109: saw one being sold for 500 Euro recently
6) Promax Prodig 5/TV Explorer - I think they are overpriced in the second hand market
7) Watch out for any second hand device capable of DVB-S2 and with MPEG2/4 demodulator from Rover, Promax, Deviser, Spaun, Sefram (Spaun is an OEM of Sefram), KWS: this means it is a newish model, but prices should be normally in excess of 1000 Euro (some may reach a LOT more)

New devices I recommend:

1) Prime Digital - OEM of Rover Instruments, some are pretty complete at great prices
2) Deviser S7000 and S7200 - amazing devices, but take care: not all options are activated and cost money

Regards,
Vitor

 

[Captain Jack]

Excellent info, Vitor!

 

[jeallen01]

Vitor

Maybe this is a stupid question, but maybe could you get at least the spectrum analyser display by connecting a (for example) Nooelec SDR module to a laptop running your SSA s/w, via a DC blocker, to a passive splitter (we have covered both of those elsewhere) fed from the dish LNB, with the other splitter I/P fed from a sat Rx to provide the LNB voltage/polarity control ?

Obviously only for amateur use!

 

[vma]

Hi,

Can you send me via pm or email a more detailed description of what you have in mind, including a schematic?

Regards,
Vitor

 

[jeallen01]

Vitor

Good morning, and my apologies for the very stupid error in last night's post - I, of course, meant the "138M--4.4G SMA signal source,generator,simple spectrum analyzer +Tracking source" (or one of the other possible units) and not the Nooelec SDR module! :mad:.
(Was expecting quite a few "choice" comments about that screw-up - but luckily I seem to be "up and running" this morning before the possible perpetrators thereof!)

However, I've had another thought about to what to connect it - and so might your SSA s/w run on a Windows (8?, 10?) tablet (or even phone?) as that combo would not be as bulky as a laptop, and would be a relatively convenient/cheap setup to use if someone does not want to buy a "proper" meter?

 

[jeallen01]

Hi,

Can you send me via pm or email a more detailed description of what you have in mind, including a schematic?

Regards,
Vitor

Vitor

Following on from my post just now, I was thinking of something like this setup from your SSA s/w manual but with the USB lead connected to a W8/10 tablet/phone - and with the PC & crazyscan sat card replaced by either a normal sat Rx, or even one of the cheap/poor battery-powered sat meters, to provide the LNB control

 

[John]

Vitor

Following on from my post just now, I was thinking of something like this setup from your SSA s/w manual but with the USB lead connected to a W8/10 tablet/phone - and with the PC & crazyscan sat card replaced by either a normal sat Rx, or even one of the cheap/poor battery-powered sat meters, to provide the LNB control
View attachment 109057

.. That's the way i do it as well, also using the Global active splitter, but i don't use the DC blocker or attenuator when using the Global unit. I use Win7 Pro on an older generation IBM laptop that enables me to select a resolution of 800 to display Vitors sw correctly.

 

[jeallen01]

I was thinking particularly of the use of a cheap tablet, as the SSA module (and blocker if needed) could be secured quite easily to the rear panel - thus making quite a compact combo.

You can pick up a cheap 8" Windows 10 tablet for around £30-35 and the SSA module is £50-55 from China if you don't already have one.

I can see an issue with the screen resolution as most of those tablets are 1200x800.

 

[vma]

It doesn't get much smaller than this:

The picture if from my blog: VMA's Satellite Blog: Meet my newest toy: GPD WIN

The software is the SSA3021X version, but it works the same with the SMA devices.

Look for GPD WIN. Smallest Windows laptop in the world!

Regards,
Vitor

 

[jeallen01]

It doesn't get much smaller than this:

The picture if from my blog: VMA's Satellite Blog: Meet my newest toy: GPD WIN

The software is the SSA3021X version, but it works the same with the SMA devices.

Look for GPD WIN. Smallest Windows laptop in the world!

Regards,
Vitor

Vitor.

Not doubting in any way your last para, but the cost of the GPD WIN is approaching that of a half-decent "pro" meter - so, any less costly alternatives (like a Win 10 tablet as I mentioned)?

 

[vma]

I think that any Windows 8 or Windows 10 tablet featuring at least a 1280x800 display should work fine. They normally come with an Intel Atom processor, which is fast enough for my software.

I have such a tablet, too, with 2560x1600 resolution and an older Atom processor. It has 2GB RAM and 32GB HDD and runs Windows 10 at 32 bit. It works fine with the SMA, but if the battery is low it cannot handle the SMA. If you are looking for a cheap Windows tablet, make sure you can power it without blocking the only USB port! Some are charged through that USB port and that could be a fail.

Also, make sure the screen is not too bad. Not just resolution wise, but the image quality. They tend to use rather low quality screens on the cheapest tablets.

Finally, do NOT purchase a Windows tablet with just 16GB HDD. You let it run the Windows Update once and the disk is 100% full. There are tricks to use the HDD with compression, but that kind of sucks, as the CPU isn't the fastest to begin with and if it has to decompress data on the fly, it will make everything even slower.

A good tablet is this one: CHUWI Hi10 Pro 2 in 1 Ultrabook Tablet PC INTEL CHERRY TRAIL X5-Z8350-$164.99 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

It is sometimes available at the EU warehouse. Get it with the keyboard. It runs pretty good and 64GB is reasonable. It dual boots between Windows and Adroid, which is great, as for pure tablet use, Windows is not so good.

I know there are even cheaper Windows tablets (like this one: Teclast X80 Pro Tablet PC INTEL CHERRY TRAIL X5 Z8350-$96.53 Online Shopping| GearBest.com or even cheaper on sales), but at some point you need to ask yourself how much you are willing to suffer with a bad product.

Now, if you are into DIY and want to BUILD your own spectrum analyser in a contained box, then lets consider this:

1) SMA device (around 70 Euro for SMA version or 200 Euro for NWT version)
2) Intel Atom Stick PC (something like this Z83S TV USB Stick Mini PC Intel Atom X5-Z8350 Quad Core EU PLUG-$92.39 Online Shopping| GearBest.com) (around 100 Euro)
3) HDMI Touch Screen Panel (Waveshare 10.1" HDMI LCD (B) 1280x800 IPS Capacitive Screen Touch Supports Raspberry Pi, Windows PC, Ubuntu PC-in Demo Board from Computer & Office on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group) (around 100 Euro)
4) Battery pack (around 50 Euro for USB battery with >10000mAh)
5) Case (DIY/3D printer/CNC milling) (no idea what it could cost, lets say 50 Euro for a pretty good case)

Total cost for your own custom made spectrum analyzer (with tracking generator in case of NWT version) 370 Euro to 500 Euro.

Conclusion: get yourself a second hand portable Anritsu spectrum analyzer for 500 to 2000 Euro! It simply isn't worth trying to build a dedicated unit like this.

Perhaps if you would take the Raspberry Zero with the SMA device and a low cost display (lets say 800x600), you could get away with around 150 Euro, but then you would have to write the software yourself, probably in Python or so. In this case: surprise me!

I tried to setup a Raspberry with a cheap touch screen that mounts on top of it and run it with an SDR dongle and a spectrum analyzer software written in Python (not by myself). It works, but honestly it sucks. It's more like a proof of concept than a functional portable mini spectrum analyzer.

Regards,
Vitor

 

[pauljbl]

Hi,

I have several professional TV field meter, including the Rover Instruments HD Touch, Deviser S7000 and S7200, Spaun Sparos 609 and 711, KWS Varos 109, etc.

The first question would be: do you want to purchase such a device for professional or amateur use?

If it is for professional use, you should consult the TV providers you most likely will end up working for. They often specify which device you need to use, in order to provide site measurements which are calibrated against everyone elses devices.

For amateur use, you must decide if it is about a one time antenna alignment or some heavy duty amateur usage, like feed hunting, antenna tuning, etc.

As an amateur I value the spectrum the most. I actually do so up to an extend, where I purchased a Siglent SSA3021X spectrum analyser and got myself a Rohde & Schwarz CRTU Universal Protocol Tester, which happens to feature a pretty good spectrum analyser for the price.

The spectrum analyser allows you to "see" what is happening on ALL frequencies at glance and in real time (if the equipment is good and the spectrum refresh rate is fast). This allows you do spot a satellite much before any tuner can actually lock the signal and tell you that you are tuning a transponder.

Also, you will be able to see feeds as they tend to show up on unusual frequencies with a narrow bandwidth, compared to regular transponders. You see that IMMEDIATLY, while otherwise it would take you minutes on a fast blind scan receiver.

Finally, all the measurments that a professional TV field meter offers, is meant to deal with strange issues. Of course, the plain 5 Euro signal strength meter will show you that there is a signal, but how do you figure out a intermittent issue with just a few transponders? How to you maximize the reception of a hard to capture satellite? Bear in mind, too, that signal strength is not the only parameter to look out for. While the constellation diagram on QPSK modulated satellite signals may have a less important role, it does allow you to minimize MER and BER issues, independantly of the signal strength.

The more information you stuck into teh modulated signal, like in 8PSK or QAM256, the more important it is to look at the constellation diagram.

With DVB-T/T2 you may want to use the ECHO measurement, which shows issues due to different antennas transmitting the same signal at the same frequency (SFN) from different distances. This can be a problem if the ECHO is out of the Guard Interval.

These are just a few quick examples.

Another reason for an amateur to get a professional meter, is the opportunity to actually learn about all this technology. I always say that a professional equipment can end up costing less than a professional training course.

Regarding the purchase of second hand devices:

1) I always recommend looking out for the Emitor Satlook Digital NIT. It is sold on eBay occasionally at ridiculous low prices (<100 Euro) and it does feature an amazing realtime spectrum and a constellation diagram.
2) Go for the Emitor Satlook Color or Color HD and get yourself a colour TFT and MPEG2 demodulator
3) Look for modernish Rover Instruments field meter. Easy rule of thumb: look out for colour screens!
4) Avoid Unaohm - they are fairly old. even the ones with a DVB logo: no MPEG demodulator, normally no constellation diagram, either. New ones are overpriced.
5) KWS Varos 109: saw one being sold for 500 Euro recently
6) Promax Prodig 5/TV Explorer - I think they are overpriced in the second hand market
7) Watch out for any second hand device capable of DVB-S2 and with MPEG2/4 demodulator from Rover, Promax, Deviser, Spaun, Sefram (Spaun is an OEM of Sefram), KWS: this means it is a newish model, but prices should be normally in excess of 1000 Euro (some may reach a LOT more)

New devices I recommend:

1) Prime Digital - OEM of Rover Instruments, some are pretty complete at great prices
2) Deviser S7000 and S7200 - amazing devices, but take care: not all options are activated and cost money

Regards,
Vitor

Thanks for the useful information.
It is for amateur use but want to learn how to use all the advanced features. What's the best way to learn all about ber mer, Constellation

 

[vma]

The best and cheapest way is to download and read the user manuals of professional meters! That costs you nothing at all and often they do explain what a given functionality is used for.
Some manufacturers offer technical documentaion, too.

Search for user manuals, as well as, generic documentation relative to the following search words: DVB, spectrum analyser, constellation diagram, echo measurement, BER, MER, C/N, etc.

Good brands to look for documentation: Rover Instruments, Unaohm, Promax, KWS, Kathrein, Rohde & Schwarz, Anritsu, JDSU, VeEX, etc.

Another thing you can do, to avoid spending too much money, is to purchase a CRAZYSCAN compatible DVB-S2 card for your PC (CrazyScan / Wiki / Info). This allows to render a non-realtime spectrum and then do an automatic transponder lock, without knowing the parameters. A great software that uses the CrazyScan DLL is EBSPro, which is now freeware (EBSpro – The DXer's dream come true!). CrazyScan works with DVB-C and DVB-T cards, too.

Once you are familiar with all this, you can start hunting on eBay for an older field meter with real time spectrum analyser. Don't worry too much about the remaining functionality - if you want an up to date device, you will quickly spend a few thousands.

Regards,
Vitor

 

[pauljbl]

The best and cheapest way is to download and read the user manuals of professional meters! That costs you nothing at all and often they do explain what a given functionality is used for.
Some manufacturers offer technical documentaion, too.

Search for user manuals, as well as, generic documentation relative to the following search words: DVB, spectrum analyser, constellation diagram, echo measurement, BER, MER, C/N, etc.

Good brands to look for documentation: Rover Instruments, Unaohm, Promax, KWS, Kathrein, Rohde & Schwarz, Anritsu, JDSU, VeEX, etc.

Another thing you can do, to avoid spending too much money, is to purchase a CRAZYSCAN compatible DVB-S2 card for your PC (CrazyScan / Wiki / Info). This allows to render a non-realtime spectrum and then do an automatic transponder lock, without knowing the parameters. A great software that uses the CrazyScan DLL is EBSPro, which is now freeware (EBSpro – The DXer's dream come true!). CrazyScan works with DVB-C and DVB-T cards, too.

Once you are familiar with all this, you can start hunting on eBay for an older field meter with real time spectrum analyser. Don't worry too much about the remaining functionality - if you want an up to date device, you will quickly spend a few thousands.

Regards,
Vitor

Thanks for good advice

When you say
"how do you figure out a intermittent issue with just a few transponders?"
What sort of issues do you mean like weak signals or interference? How would you fix theses by better alignment?


"How to you maximize the reception of a hard to capture satellite? "
Does a good meter help you align better with the other measurements? Is using snr not good enough on its own?

 

[John]

... Another Promax HD Ranger + here for sale. Expensive but slightly cheaper than other used ones recently.

Promax HD RANGER+ ( Satellite & Terrestrial Meter ) | eBay