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Help Required Thor 5 (0.8°W) and Hot Bird (13° E) single dish

Discussion in 'DISH SETUP: Single sat, Multi-Sat & Motorised' started by 9944990, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. 9944990

    9944990 New Member

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    Location:
    Sweden
    My Satellite Setup:
    Thor 5 @ 0.8° W
    Hotbird @ 13° E
    Y1A @ 52.5°E
    My Location:
    Sweden
    I have been trying to receive signal from Hot Bird 13° E for two weeks now.

    My setup:
    • 80 cm dish
    • Foxstar FS-5G-6 FTA Receiver
    • 2x Universal LNB
    • Universal 4 LNB holder
    I am able to receive signal from Thor 5 but not Hot Bird I am not sure if I have setup the LNB holder correctly as it has two parts which are little curved, my question is do the curv point to the dish or point out ? I am attaching pictures which may help the manual which cames with the kit is useless (just few pictures nothing else)

    I am situated in out side of Gothenburg Sweden according to the manual Thor LNB should be on 1st bracket from left and HotBird the 3rd from left.
     

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  2. sonnetpete

    sonnetpete Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member

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    The curve should be towards the dish, however be aware that the bracket will also need raising slightly to receive 13E. Slacken off the holder round your Thor LNB and move the bracket until you get a hint of a signal from 13E. You can then refine the LNB position, both horizontally and vertically. Don't forget that the LNB's mirror the actual positions of the satellites in the arc in the sort of set up.
     
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  3. a33

    a33 Member

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    @9944990 :
    The tilt of the multifeedholder (or of the entire dish) should in fact be about 3,3 degrees, see SatLex Digital :: Technology :: Calculators :: WF Toroidal Calculator

    If you have tilted the holder to that value, if all's well you just need to slide the second LNB holder till you get reception on the second satellite.
    The distance between the two holders you have to find by trying; or by calculating, on base of the dish-dimensions and your location. But most people do it by trying.

    greetz,
    A33
     
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  4. st1

    st1 SMC-dish aficionado

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    Potentially very sound advice, but from the pictures it looks as if the multi-LNB holder is intended to be fixed onto the dish arm, not the LNB.

    IF this is the case, @9944990 will not be able to tilt the bracket upwards.

    Instead, OP has three options:

    1) Tilt the dish mount around a centre axis (which is very likely impractical) so that the 13E LNB is correct, this is propbably 3.3 degrees as @a33 points out.

    2) Physcially bend the metal arm holding the 13E LNB until an upward slant is achieved (difficult to get right). This will lift the 13E LNB into the proper height.

    3) Re-centre dish on 7E using one of the LNBs, then move that LNB intto holder to the right (looking into dish) of the centre one for 1W, the other LNB in a holder left for 13E. this should be OK as 13E is almost due south, so we are very close to the top of the arc. This will divide the height error between the two LNBs (roughly), and as both are quite strong this may work.

    4) Put some suitable like washers or plastic pieces between the metal LNB holder arm and the 13E LNB holder itself, raising the LNB holder by, say 4-5 mm. Longer bolts may be required.

    I would try the last option - it's relative easy to get washers, but will require some trial and error. But you don't need to realign dish or abuse/adapt hardware. A simple sat-beeper may be enough to get you going.

    What you are trying to achieve should be quite easy - do not despair,

    Just a thought - can you supply a bit more information:
    > what sat the dish (origainally) aligned to?
    > what is the make of the dish? Triax?
    > can you post a picture or two of the current configuration, this is worth a thousand words. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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  5. sonnetpete

    sonnetpete Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed, but if he goes with the configuration in the first image, surely he can use one of the farthest holders to mount on the existing central LNB then make the required adjustments for 13E without the bracket being attached to the dish arm? He will need to bend the bracket slightly as you've said. I also agree that some photos of the dish will help...
     
  6. st1

    st1 SMC-dish aficionado

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    I think those LNB holder are too thick to fit around the neck of a standard universal LNB which is sat in, say, a Triax LNB holder.
    If OP is using long-neck stuff like inverto, yes, you are right. He could attach the universal holder to the central LNB and thereby avoid attaching holder to arm.
    But I have a feeling he isn't, and therefor have mounted the holder on the arm, and the LNBs in the holder...
     
  7. st1

    st1 SMC-dish aficionado

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    One more thing:
    - how are you attaching the two LNBs to your receiver? DiSEqC switch? Cable swapping?

    As much info as possible, the better the chance of forum members being able to help!
     
  8. 9944990

    9944990 New Member

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    Location:
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    My Satellite Setup:
    Thor 5 @ 0.8° W
    Hotbird @ 13° E
    Y1A @ 52.5°E
    My Location:
    Sweden
    Thanks everyone for your tips.
    • I have attached the Universal LNB to LNB arm and attached LNBs to the holder.
    • The dish originally aligned to Thor 5
    • It is 80cm Telesystem dish see pictures
    • I am going to to use a DiSEqC but just now i swap the cables.
    • As you can see in the pictures the part where Hot Bird LNB is mounted is already raised compared to the left part.
    I am able to get signal from Hot Bird and Thor if i use single LNB without Holder without changing dish elevation angel but with the holder only Thor.

    PS: I just came from work it is dark, rainy and windy here I hope pictures help the blue LNB is the one used for Hot Bird
     

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  9. sonnetpete

    sonnetpete Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member

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    From first viewing of the photos, I'd say the blue LNB may need raising a little more and could possibly be too far from the support arm. It would be easier if you could put yourself in a position to see the signal readout from your receiver, slacken off the blue LNB and manouver it while viewing the results..With multisat set ups, sometimes it really is a matter of trial and error and persistence..
     
  10. RimaNTSS

    RimaNTSS Super Moderator Staff Member

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    @9944990 Looking at your multifeed, I would say that it is almost impossible to tune it precisely to your chosen satellites (well, if not impossible than very hard). Even more is hard to tune such antenna when you do not have central (in focus) LNB. I would recommend to install central LNB and point your antenna to 4,8*E, and only then add LNBs for Thor and Hotbird. You will need 1/4 Diseqc to connect all 3 LNBs to it. That is IMHO.
     
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  11. a33

    a33 Member

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    Hhhhhuuuuhhh? With this setup the blue one would be for 1W, the grey one for 13E, on the northern hemisphere, if I'm not mistaken :) .
    Could that be the problem here?

    If not: can you also take a picture from the side, showing entire dish + arm + LNBs? Due to perspective I'm not quite sure whether the LNBs possibly aim too high with this multifeedholder, and whether the arm possibly hangs too low.
    Also is not the side wall partly in the way of the signal path to 13E? On the pictures it doesn't show.


    BTW Aiming your dish on a centre satellite, as @RimaNTSS suggests, would be good. The central LNB can then be removed later, for your second wanted satellite.


    Greetz,
    A33
     
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  12. st1

    st1 SMC-dish aficionado

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    Excellent - this explains everything. Thanks for posting!

    You are not.
    Exactly my thoughts (but only gotten to a computer with decent keyboard now).

    OP need to observe that the dish is a mirror, both horizontally and vertically.
    If the non-blue LNB is pointing at 1W, then the blue is pointing at, say 14W.
    (No wonder OP can't see 13E.)

    Based on OPs photos, I strongly suggest that he repoint dish to 7E, then move LNBs to 1W and 13E respectively (as outlined in my above post).
    Don't try center on 1W, and then an outrigger for 13E - it's probably to far out from the center.


    No, it isn't. The curve is in the plane of the reflection from the center of the reflector. Your focus is still above the plane of the multi-LNB holder.
    And the 2-3 mm of the holder thickness isn't going to do much difference. I think more like 1-2 cm...

    But you may get away with doing what I recommend above with the center on 7E.
     
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  13. a33

    a33 Member

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    Ah yes; you were the first to suggest that :) .
    Sorry, I didn't recall that when I was typing my post :( .

    Greetz,
    A33
     
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  14. st1

    st1 SMC-dish aficionado

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    You're giving me too much credit.

    I was merely speculating when we did not have the photos to document what was really going on.

    Your observation is of course the main culprit - stringing out the LNB in the wrong direction!
    I was actually only glad to not be the only person noting this.... :)
     
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  15. 9944990

    9944990 New Member

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    Location:
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    My Satellite Setup:
    Thor 5 @ 0.8° W
    Hotbird @ 13° E
    Y1A @ 52.5°E
    My Location:
    Sweden
    I try the center on 7E solution on Saturday and update you guys. I need to center the dish to 7E using one single LNB then mount the holder and LNBs on both sides?
    @st1 "If the non-blue LNB is pointing at 1W, then the blue is pointing at, say 14W" this was interesting to me if we look at the blue LNB it physically points to 13E but as you said it mirrors which was new for me :)

    Can someone explain how the mirroring works and how we calculate the position of central LNB in order to receive signals from other LNBs ?
    Is the left LNBs receive signal from right satellite and vice-versa ?
    After centralizing the dish to 7E should the blue LNB be mounted on the left as it is now or right in order to use it for Hot Bird 13E ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  16. sonnetpete

    sonnetpete Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member

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    Initally, set up your dish for 7E only, with an LNB in the original holder on the dish support arm. Adjust dish for best results and lock off horizontal and vertical adjustments. Remove the central LNB and mount your two LNB bracket. Looking at the dish from the front, the LNB for 13E should be to the left of the dish LNB arm and slightly raised. 1E should be to the right of the arm and slightly lower.

    To explain 'mirroring' : You are trying to follow the satellite arc or curve by creating a corresponding curve with your LNB bracket. However, because your dish is fixed, any LNB for a different point in the curve will have to receive it's signal at an angle. Hence the need to find the 'sweet spot' with your bracket and LNB, a matter of trial and error and compromise. Don't forget to adjust skew on both LNB's for best results.

    Sorry if this isn't a good explanation, if you Google 'multi sat set ups' I'm sure you could find better explanatory articles and images...
     
  17. a33

    a33 Member

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    We don't know yet if in this case the original feedholder places the central LNB at exactly the same hight and angle as (the middle feedholder from) the multifeedholder.
    These measurements aren't standardised, alas. Various (multi)feedholders place the LNBs at varous hights, which can lead to suboptimal positioning of the LNBs for a specific dish.

    That being unknown, I'd aim at 7E using the multifeedholder, using an LNB-holder at the middle position above the arm.
    Otherwise (using the original feedholder) the chosen elevation angle of the dish with the multifeed holder could be off, and finding (finetuning) the 1W and 13E could be much more difficult.

    For aiming your dish: use dishpointer.com! Then you can see the exact aiming direction on a map/ on earth view.

    MfG,
    A33
     
  18. 9944990

    9944990 New Member

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    Hotbird @ 13° E
    Y1A @ 52.5°E
    My Location:
    Sweden
    @sonnetpete Thank you for your explanation it was somehow helpful for me :)

    The first thing I did today was went to the store where I purchased the holder just to check the sample how they have mounted the holder/LNBs the guy was not very helpful and recommended me to purchase there installation service for 800 kr (around 100 USD) but he mentioned I do not need to tilt the side or use a washer the holder it self is constructed for Astra 19E, Hotbird 13E, Astra 5E, Thor 1W.

    Then I pointed the dish using a central LNB to 7E (Eutelsat W3A) then swap the LNBs positions (due to mirror effect) but still no signal from Hot Bird or Thor.

    I just read on CanalDigital website (channel distributor which i purchase services via Thor) that their services can be received either via Thor or 5E. I am still not sure if I placed the LNBs for Hot Bird (Blue) and Thor (White) on correct places.

    Is it easy to adjust 13E and 5E instead of 13E and 1W?

    First two pictures are from the sample in the store other pictures my setup plus view of satellites when standing behind the dish.
     

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  19. Ghostleader

    Ghostleader Specialist Contributor

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    So the grey LNB is Thor right?
     
  20. 9944990

    9944990 New Member

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