UK TV in Europe after 2e 2f and 2g are operational

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
527
Reaction score
90
Points
28
Age
71
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
On another now closed thread there was some pretty heated debates about whether the fringes in Spain will receive a signal from the new 2e, 2F and 2G birds and how their deployment might affect fringe use. Many very good and well argued points were raised, many of which cast some doubt on what we might come to expect in 2013.

What does seem almost certain is that with a more focused beam than 2D, those in the east such as in Turkey and Cyprus who have already felt the effect of a tighter beam from 1N will continue to be out in the cold regarding 2E, 2F and 2G. This has not been due to power but to the fact that 2D was not really a fine focus device but 1N (as will be 2e, 2f, & 2g) is. However, what happens in the rest of Europe seems to be a bit more confused and debatable and regarding reception in southern France and in Spain there seem to be two main views of what is perhaps to come.

1) The new birds will have a very tight beam focused on the UK and so those on the current fringes may receive even less of a signal then when we had 2D operational. The evidence for this appears to be based on the footprint maps recently released and from assumptions that 2F will have more of a "spot beam" than 1N currently has.

2) The second view is that the new birds are the same type and model as 1N using the same power and antenna size and will operate from the same orbit as 1N is in now and so some people think this will mean that only shaping of the beam is possible in order to create a tighter spot beam on the UK which then may have some affect on exactly which other parts of Europe are illuminated. The evidence for this is that as 1N and the new birds have exactly the same power output and the same 2.7m antennae, the actual amount of area illuminated will be about the same – although it will be possible to change the shape (but not the total area) of the footprint. If this is the case then it is possible that much of Spain could get a very similar signal as it does now from 1N – but that will depend on the final shape of the footprint.

As far as I can see from all the threads on this and other forums, there are likely to be several consequences of all this for people on the costas.

If 1) is correct then only very large dishes will work here and perhaps for some areas reception will be impossible and so TV will have to be delivered by either re-broadcasters (using perhaps internet feeds) or direct by ADSL.

If 2) is correct then there are several possible outcomes, including that reception will be similar to 1n so no change in dish will be needed - or a medium sized dish may be necessary is some areas whilst in others the signal may drop off more quickly than with 1n in fact so larger dishes may be needed. Thirdly there may be areas which fall off the new beam shape altogether and so reception will not be possible.

The main problem is there is no real published data about the beam shape over Iberia apart from the current footprint maps which are only really relevant for small dishes and areas closer to the UK. What we need now is for some expert to work out the likely extension of the published footprint using the known data from 1N and its original published footprint, and then use it to produce a guesstimate of the likely extended footprint of the new birds from the so far published footprint maps for 2e,2f &2g. Anyone up for the job? And if so are people willing to supply good information regarding 1N reception where they are and what size dish is needed etc in order to be able to produce a good and reliable “extended footprint” map for 1N? As I say – anyone up for the job?

Overall I am now feeling a little more hopeful that my set-up designed for 2D will still be more than enough for this location and that it seem possible I will be able to get away with a smaller dish than my 2.4m – however – until the new birds actually fly I am not about to swap dishes just yet!!
 

andrewcrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
272
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Age
39
Website
www.computersupportservicescs.co.uk
My Satellite Setup
Dual DVB-2S computer system and DUal Qbox HD Mini with oscam
My Location
scotland
can someoen post a link to the original 1n spot beam and current maps that show further than the 1n originl spot beam dooes for coverage i might be able to work it out, but it will involve some complex math not sur ei can be bother to do it but ill havea look if i can get the maps
 

PaulR

Dazed and Confused Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Messages
17,569
Reaction score
3,664
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
-----------See sig-----------
My Location
Wirral, NW UK and Vaucluse, France.
That's a very good summing up there. I suppose that it depends on whether you're an optimist or a pessimist as to which way you lean.
 

lanab

ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
121
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
52
My Satellite Setup
1.20m Offset, Azbox ME
My Location
Sweden
I would advice everyone in to sit still because you don't know if it will even be possible to receive it further on when the new sat is in place of 1N, if you buy a 1.8m dish today and with the new sat coming not even a 6 meter dish might receive it, then you wasted money buying a 1.8m that only lasted during 1N timeframe.
 

Analoguesat

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
49,311
Reaction score
9,942
Points
113
Location
Scottish Borders
My Satellite Setup
TM 5402HD
Sky+ UK.
My Location
Scottish Borders
The only answer its possible to give is "we just dont know"

However - by this time next year we should have a much better idea of whats going to be possible
 

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
527
Reaction score
90
Points
28
Age
71
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Analoguesat said:
The only answer its possible to give is "we just dont know" However - by this time next year we should have a much better idea of whats going to be possible

Aww - thats no fun - half the joy of this forum is the sheer speculation!!!
 

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
527
Reaction score
90
Points
28
Age
71
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
Just noticed this on another forum -http://www.astra2d.com/astra2f.html Very interesting..

Admin edit - please remember no clickable links to other sites.
 

andrewcrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
272
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Age
39
Website
www.computersupportservicescs.co.uk
My Satellite Setup
Dual DVB-2S computer system and DUal Qbox HD Mini with oscam
My Location
scotland
just looking at the astra 3b astra 1n original and the one that is available that is published now i say up to german will be receiveable probally with about 1.5m dish (this is guess i can give the power i roughly calculated it to be if that mroe desirable this is guess work using maths and these images but it not a exact science) the power will be about 40dbmw for germany and will probally dropped off east of that possible even germany

south you are talking north of spain with about 40dbmw and sharp drop off from there on, north, i would say the country in the far west i think finland? might get it and possible the one next to it nroway? but after that ti will drop of i say the first will will have a power of 42-41dbmw, iceland will probally havea power of about 43-41dbmw. but this isnt exact scienece dnt take it for granted this is assuming drop off being the same as astra 3b and astra 1n, i mean how the power gets smaller as the bars get further form teh centre
 

joddle

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
527
Reaction score
90
Points
28
Age
71
My Satellite Setup
2x Pace 2600 C1 (in a box just in case) , 3 x Humax HD Foxstat (2 of which in store as spares) . 3x Manhatten Plaza - Pasat 2.4 PF dish mounted on flat roof with Invacom C120 quad LNB .
My Location
Massanassa, Valencia, Spain
joddle said:
Admin edit - please remember no clickable links to other sites.
Oops sorry -
 

Captain Jack

Модератор
Staff member
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
11,283
Reaction score
7,502
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
North Somerset
Yeah, Astra 3b is a good example of a sharp drop off. In Tunbridge Wells, I was able to receive it on my Penta 85 with decent enough levels. In Wiltshire, I was struggling with a 1.25m Gibby. Not a sign of it on Penta in Portishead/Bristol. Distance is about 150 miles between Tunbridge Wells and Portishead as the crow flies.
 

DishDick

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
772
Reaction score
27
Points
28
My Satellite Setup
.
My Location
Gran Canaria
Really people should stop worrying about things they can´t foresee or control. Enjoy what they have now, and remember there are some excellent IPTV service providers out there now at a good price (cheaper and easier than buying and maintaining large dishes - also without the politics that go with a large dish install!).
 

Captain Jack

Модератор
Staff member
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
11,283
Reaction score
7,502
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
North Somerset
IPTV isn't really the answer. I am about to lose Platforma HD on 9'E as it's basically going bankrupt and is "merging" with Trikolor on 36'E (unreceivable in UK) and I only have a Viasat Baltic subscription to sort of fill in some of the channels (no HD, like Platforma and crappier picture quality). Once Platforma goes, my only choice will be IPTV like Kartina TV over my Popcorn Hour box. It's a viable alternative but I would take a larger dish over IPTV any time....
 

Lazarus

Tout Rond Bon Oeuf
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
26,611
Reaction score
8,306
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
80cm Motorised.
Several small Dishes.
Much else.
My Location
North York Moors
DishDick said:
Really people should stop worrying about things they can´t foresee or control. Enjoy what they have now, and remember there are some excellent IPTV service providers out there now at a good price (cheaper and easier than buying and maintaining large dishes - also without the politics that go with a large dish install!).

But therein lies another problem as many of us are limited to 1Mbps Download speeds with little prospect of significant improvement in the medium term.

That's another form of "fringe reception"!
 

Analoguesat

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
49,311
Reaction score
9,942
Points
113
Location
Scottish Borders
My Satellite Setup
TM 5402HD
Sky+ UK.
My Location
Scottish Borders
Tivù said:
But therein lies another problem as many of us are limited to 1Mbps Download speeds with little prospect of significant improvement in the medium term.

That's another form of "fringe reception"!

Thats very true.

I live a mile and a half from Galashiels, but the phone line takes a circuitous route to get here which at least doubles its length. I get around 1-1.5 meg. Some nights I can barely stream You tube videos successfully, so there is no hope at all of IPTV here anytime soon.
 

andrewcrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
272
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Age
39
Website
www.computersupportservicescs.co.uk
My Satellite Setup
Dual DVB-2S computer system and DUal Qbox HD Mini with oscam
My Location
scotland
where as i am lucky to have 100mb connection with 10mb upload ;) and getting a bt fttc conenction 80/20 bonded to it as well ;)

but yeah iptv isnt the answer i think the best solution is for copyright holders to all9ow broadcast everywhere without uping the charges
 

Analoguesat

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
49,311
Reaction score
9,942
Points
113
Location
Scottish Borders
My Satellite Setup
TM 5402HD
Sky+ UK.
My Location
Scottish Borders
andrewcrawford said:
where as i am lucky to have 100mb connection

That's more than we have at the local high school - and its shared between nearly 300 computers
 

timo_w2s

Retired Mod
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
4,359
Reaction score
2,883
Points
113
Website
www.timo.me.uk
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Maidenhead, UK & Helsinki, Finland
joddle said:
2) The second view is that the new birds are the same type and model as 1N using the same power and antenna size and will operate from the same orbit as 1N is in now and so some people think this will mean that only shaping of the beam is possible in order to create a tighter spot beam on the UK which then may have some affect on exactly which other parts of Europe are illuminated. The evidence for this is that as 1N and the new birds have exactly the same power output and the same 2.7m antennae, the actual amount of area illuminated will be about the same – although it will be possible to change the shape (but not the total area) of the footprint. If this is the case then it is possible that much of Spain could get a very similar signal as it does now from 1N – but that will depend on the final shape of the footprint.

To add to the speculation (as that is all it is) I would go with this except for the last line. Due to the slightly different footprint from 1N I think there will be areas in the far south that will suffer. The big question is, by how much. I was also thinking that the new UK beams may be more symmetrical, which could mean very slightly more signal to the east to those who can already get something, but still with fast drop offs at the beams edges so not much to get excited about.
 

DishDick

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
772
Reaction score
27
Points
28
My Satellite Setup
.
My Location
Gran Canaria
Well say what you like, but when those new birds are up, and there are winners and losers, the losers will either have to forego their TV, buy ever larger dishes (assuming no frequency re use), move home, or go IPTV (or Slingbox).

Now here we are in the back of beyond. We have Telefonica possibly the worst internet/phone company in Europe, lucky to get 1 to 1.5mbps. There are IPTV providers here showing most of the good Freesat channels and Scandinavian channels (both large expat populations here), picture is good, the EPG is excellent and you can see programmes up to 7 days after broadcast.

Now I would like to keep my big dish and use it, but we all have to be realistic. And Andrew wishing "....the best solution is for copyright holders to all9ow broadcast everywhere without uping the charges", well you might as well wish for Sky to give you all their channels free!

So what I am saying is, I have seen IPTV working well on bad internet connections, in a remote tiny island. I am not promoting a company ( I don´t personally like subscribing to any company), but there are options out there. So for those of you who have 1N enjoy it. If you are on the fringe be prepared to have to use a new method to get your TV in the future. But all this wasted time worrying about whether you will or won´t get it will make no difference. When the birds are up there, you will know!
 

andrewcrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
272
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Age
39
Website
www.computersupportservicescs.co.uk
My Satellite Setup
Dual DVB-2S computer system and DUal Qbox HD Mini with oscam
My Location
scotland
DishDick said:
Well say what you like, but when those new birds are up, and there are winners and losers, the losers will either have to forego their TV, buy ever larger dishes (assuming no frequency re use), move home, or go IPTV (or Slingbox).

Now here we are in the back of beyond. We have Telefonica possibly the worst internet/phone company in Europe, lucky to get 1 to 1.5mbps. There are IPTV providers here showing most of the good Freesat channels and Scandinavian channels (both large expat populations here), picture is good, the EPG is excellent and you can see programmes up to 7 days after broadcast.

Now I would like to keep my big dish and use it, but we all have to be realistic. And Andrew wishing "....the best solution is for copyright holders to all9ow broadcast everywhere without uping the charges", well you might as well wish for Sky to give you all their channels free!

So what I am saying is, I have seen IPTV working well on bad internet connections, in a remote tiny island. I am not promoting a company ( I don´t personally like subscribing to any company), but there are options out there. So for those of you who have 1N enjoy it. If you are on the fringe be prepared to have to use a new method to get your TV in the future. But all this wasted time worrying about whether you will or won´t get it will make no difference. When the birds are up there, you will know!

i didnt mean for free but a more better proporation increase charge so channels are broadcast throughout the world it iwll never happen unless copyright holder change there models that goes for illegal download things need to change but they wont
 
Top