UK TV in Europe after 2e 2f and 2g are operational

[L0nk]

Well.. you know.. there's also a positive aspect about 2F, 2E and 2G.
Because: it seems they all will have the same spot... so the perfect thing will be:
In one year, we'll know how to receive 2F - and we'll also know if it's worth it. And: more importantly.. once 2F is flying.. 2E and 2G will probably have the same beams. So: no discussions until in 12 years!

That's something quite positive. I laugh at people from my country who heard "UKTV with 1N easy, awesome?" pay installers to modify their dishes for hundreds of euros and they might end up without proper receiption in 2013 - modifying dishes now is not really recommendable imo. - but in one year... all that speculation and stuff is over.

 

[DishDick]

Modifying a dish or even buying a new one to get 1N is ok if people know about the short life span of that set up (for the main UK channels). We all have our own outlook on percieved value. The problem is with "crooks" selling these systems and people thinking they are going to get many years of service (ie channels they want to see) out of them, which clearly they are not!

I get on well with a local installer and told him quite clearly he should let his customers know the life span of the 1.8m dishes he is fitting for expats, as if he doesn´t his reputation will be severly damaged when the new birds go up.

 

[Analoguesat]

Well.. you know.. there's also a positive aspect about 2F, 2E and 2G.
Because: it seems they all will have the same spot... so the perfect thing will be:
In one year, we'll know how to receive 2F - and we'll also know if it's worth it. And: more importantly.. once 2F is flying.. 2E and 2G will probably have the same beams. So: no discussions until in 12 years!

It doesnt work like that - It only needs a minute imperfection or distortion in the reflector dish (a few tenths of a mm) and somewhere will get a "hotspot" or a "coldspot"

The dish deployment may also not be exactly the same - a few hundredths of a degree difference in deployment means problems for someone in the extreme fringe area.

Also the satellites are a few tens of miles apart in space, so even if everything is identical the coverage wont be exactly the same at the fringes.

 

[L0nk]

It doesnt work like that - It only needs a minute imperfection or distortion in the reflector dish (a few tenths of a mm) and somewhere will get a "hotspot" or a "coldspot"

The dish deployment may also not be exactly the same - a few hundredths of a degree difference in deployment means problems for someone in the extreme fringe area.

Okay, you're right! Without a doubt... what I was trying to get on was.. we'll most likely have clarity about the "general fringe" receiption once 2F is up. I doubt they can use the experience of 2F to finetune 2E.. maybe 2G. But of course.. coldspots and such.. are something else.

 

[terryashbyash]

Well say what you like, but when those new birds are up, and there are winners and losers, the losers will either have to forego their TV, buy ever larger dishes (assuming no frequency re use), move home, or go IPTV (or Slingbox).

Now here we are in the back of beyond. We have Telefonica possibly the worst internet/phone company in Europe, lucky to get 1 to 1.5mbps. There are IPTV providers here showing most of the good Freesat channels and Scandinavian channels (both large expat populations here), picture is good, the EPG is excellent and you can see programmes up to 7 days after broadcast.

Now I would like to keep my big dish and use it, but we all have to be realistic. And Andrew wishing "....the best solution is for copyright holders to all9ow broadcast everywhere without uping the charges", well you might as well wish for Sky to give you all their channels free!

So what I am saying is, I have seen IPTV working well on bad internet connections, in a remote tiny island. I am not promoting a company ( I don´t personally like subscribing to any company), but there are options out there. So for those of you who have 1N enjoy it. If you are on the fringe be prepared to have to use a new method to get your TV in the future. But all this wasted time worrying about whether you will or won´t get it will make no difference. When the birds are up there, you will know!

+

How long it will last I do not know, but filmon have sd uktv for free at the moment, their so called hd(pay option) is not quite as good as channel 5 sd on 1N but hey guys sd is free A quick look at network use (using windows task manager) shows approx 1Mb adsl shoul do the trick and I suspect post 1N it, or something similar, will be my main source of UK telly again

 

[Satellite74]

It doesnt work like that - It only needs a minute imperfection or distortion in the reflector dish (a few tenths of a mm) and somewhere will get a "hotspot" or a "coldspot"

The dish deployment may also not be exactly the same - a few hundredths of a degree difference in deployment means problems for someone in the extreme fringe area.

Also the satellites are a few tens of miles apart in space, so even if everything is identical the coverage wont be exactly the same at the fringes.

Yes - we have to keep in mind that those satellites sit in the sky at over 32,000 kms above ground, and that their beam antennas are just over 2 metres in diameter. And in the case of the UK spot beam, they are still expected to cover an area about 300 miles across at maximum signal strength and without substantial overspill.

Even with the latest beam-shaping technology, there is only so much accuracy with which an antenna dish can be manufactured in order to accurately cover a desired area on the ground. It will have its minute imperfections at the nanometer level, which in a fringe reception area can make a difference of several (dozen) miles in terms of dBW strength.

To me, that also means that there is also no telling yet if SES Astra will outdo themselves in tightening 2F's future UK spotbeam, or if the beam will be less tight than proclaimed.

As I've said before - UK broadcasters and rights holders want a tight UK spot beam, so that's what SES have drawn a picture of for their latest brochure.

Everything else is speculation and can go either way.

That said, I'm still pessimistic about "extreme fringe" areas like southern Spain, central Scandinavia and southeastern Europe... I predict that those areas which already had trouble receiving Astra 2D will hardly be better off with the new 2F.

 

[joddle]

That said, I'm still pessimistic about "extreme fringe" areas like southern Spain, central Scandinavia and southeastern Europe... I predict that those areas which already had trouble receiving Astra 2D will hardly be better off with the new 2F.

But "hardly better" could be quite good news for some!!

 

[Satellite74]

But "hardly better" could be quite good news for some!!

Don't be too optimistic about what I said when I wrote "hardly better". What I really meant was that Freesat will be considerably harder to pick up once it is moved to 2F, compared to the days of 2D. If you couldn't catch 2D's signal, or only just with a large dish, then it is very likely that you won't get any channels at all when 2F begins service. People who live only a few hundred miles from the British coast in either direction will probably be ok with a 120cm(-plus) dish. But according to Google Earth, your area, Valencia, is 800 miles south of England's south coast. Even your 2.4m dish might be no match for the new spot beam.

You have to remember that 2F will be custom designed to deliver a spot beam for the British Isles using the latest beam shaping technology. 2D's beam shaping capabilities were about equal to those of a hand torch, because that technology was still in its infancy in 2000 when the satellite was launched.

 

[joddle]

You have to remember that 2F will be custom designed to deliver a spot beam for the British Isles using the latest beam shaping technology. 2D's beam shaping capabilities were about equal to those of a hand torch, because that technology was still in its infancy in 2000 when the satellite was launched.

But isn't that the whole point!! - how much beam shaping will be possible? - 2F is basically the same bird as 1n - same model - same antenna size - same power. Yes some beam shaping may be possible but how much is the real question - and that we simply dont know. I have a feeling that politics is controlling the "published specs" at the moment not science so maybe things wont be as bad as the doom and gloom people are predicting (again!).

 

[andrewcrawford]

But isn't that the whole point!! - how much beam shaping will be possible? - 2F is basically the same bird as 1n - same model - same antenna size - same power. Yes some beam shaping may be possible but how much is the real question - and that we simply dont know. I have a feeling that politics is controlling the "published specs" at the moment not science so maybe things wont be as bad as the doom and gloom people are predicting (again!).

1n was never intended for the uk, using the the current graph and know grpahs for 1n other beams and astra 3b i have made aprediciton and how far east it will go and south and north

yes there more power there but if the drop off of the signla is like 1n and frequency reuse are used anything east of germany will struggle and germany might nto fair so great, south of france or south of north spain will struggle if at all, italy will mostly likely not get the singla at all, the only area that might get good signal might be iceland and the far west scandavian country

 

[Huevos]

Valencia, is 800 miles south of England's south coast.

Distance is irrelevant.

 

[PaulR]

Distance is irrelevant.

Hardly, when we're talking about the extent of the edges of the satellite footprint. To take it to the extreme 3,000 miles would definitely be relevant.

 

[andrewcrawford]

Hardly, when we're talking about the extent of the edges of the satellite footprint. To take it to the extreme 3,000 miles would definitely be relevant.

can any of the users on here that messy about with maps for footprints tell me the software they use to move beams ot extend them etc, ill try taking the uk beam and extend it with how it might look for fringe reception but im not great with images so someoen might need to tidy up anyth9ng i do

 

[ralphmagno]

hello to all,
so far we don't know for sure untill the launch.
so far they will replace 1N in about a year. it could be we can still receive it. and it could be naples will loos it again and cypress will be cack up and running again.
about a year after 1n replacement another will be launched .
launches have been delayed in the past and satellites have been lost and never found.

so for someone to make a small upgrade for now that satifies the need for now.
i would not see spending 2,000 to 3,000 euro on something that may not work in 2 years.
small upgrades from a 1.20 to a 1.6 meter dish are not that much.
most ask installers if they can get the service running, not garentee it for the life of satellites.

there is no one who can know for sure how long good times will last in reception.
ralph

 

[Satellite74]

1n was never intended for the uk, using the the current graph and know grpahs for 1n other beams and astra 3b i have made aprediciton and how far east it will go and south and north

1N was designed for shaped pan-European beams at 19°E with steep drop-off. Now that it is stationed at a more easterly orbital position (28°E) serving an area considerably more northwesterly than central Europe, the outer edges of the beam are wider and more blurred. In a nutshell and in addition to the fact that 1N's beam antennae weren't designed for the topography of the British Isles, that is basically why currently most of Western Europe can pick up the signal. It's simple geometry.

It could be that the further east the orbital position of a satellite relative to its intended area of coverage on the ground, the harder it becomes to create a tight signal drop-off around the beam's edges. There will probably always be some spillover into continental Europe as long as Britain is served from 28°E. But again, beam shaping technology has seen quantum leaps since 2D was designed in the late 1990s. And I think it's not unlikely that SES Astra now have the technology to shape a UK spot beam at 28°E so that it has almost as little spillover as a continental pan-European beam at 19°E.

 

[andrewcrawford]

1N was designed for shaped pan-European beams at 19°E with steep drop-off. Now that it is stationed at a more easterly orbital position (28°E) serving an area considerably more northwesterly than central Europe, the outer edges of the beam are wider and more blurred. In a nutshell and in addition to the fact that 1N's beam antennae weren't designed for the topography of the British Isles, that is basically why currently most of Western Europe can pick up the signal. It's simple geometry.

It could be that the further east the orbital position of a satellite relative to its intended area of coverage on the ground, the harder it becomes to create a tight signal drop-off around the beam's edges. There will probably always be some spillover into continental Europe as long as Britain is served from 28°E. But again, beam shaping technology has seen quantum leaps since 2D was designed in the late 1990s. And I think it's not unlikely that SES Astra now have the technology to shape a UK spot beam at 28°E so that it has almost as little spillover as a continental pan-European beam at 19°E.

i think my post never made since basically i was sayign what you did but ina simpler form. but i can roughly predict using 2f spot beam roughly predictide where it will dorp off if someoen can point me ato iamge software i can extend teh beam outwards to roughly reflect what the power drops will look like on the beam

 

[joddle]

1N was designed for shaped pan-European beams at 19°E with steep drop-off. Now that it is stationed at a more easterly orbital position (28°E) serving an area considerably more northwesterly than central Europe, the outer edges of the beam are wider and more blurred. In a nutshell and in addition to the fact that 1N's beam antennae weren't designed for the topography of the British Isles, that is basically why currently most of Western Europe can pick up the signal. It's simple geometry.

It could be that the further east the orbital position of a satellite relative to its intended area of coverage on the ground, the harder it becomes to create a tight signal drop-off around the beam's edges. There will probably always be some spillover into continental Europe as long as Britain is served from 28°E. But again, beam shaping technology has seen quantum leaps since 2D was designed in the late 1990s. And I think it's not unlikely that SES Astra now have the technology to shape a UK spot beam at 28°E so that it has almost as little spillover as a continental pan-European beam at 19°E.

But again we are comparing 2F with 2D when in fact 2f will essentially the same bird as 1N - ie same model with same antennae - so if 1n has a large overspill due to the orbital position and oblique transmission angle to the UK why will 2f be much different? You can't do very much beam shaping unless you have a larger antennae to focus it better!

 

[andrewcrawford]

But again we are comparing 2F with 2D when in fact 2f will essentially the same bird as 1N - ie same model with same antennae - so if 1n has a large overspill due to the orbital position and oblique transmission angle to the UK why will 2f be much different? You can't do very much beam shaping unless you have a larger antennae to focus it better!

what people should look at is 1n drop off and hwo it beam which wsaant designed for the uk doesnt give that greata reception far east or south, and 2f beam is more designed for it as i say i can roughly predicate the beam i think i have read 40db is the lowest power need for a receiveable signal i can probally make beam show this

 

[Captain Jack]

I remember the days when Sirius 1 at 5E was pretty much inaccessible in the UK without a very large dish whereas in Scandinavia they got away with tiny dishes... Strange how the latest Sirius 4 is much stronger than Sirius 2/3.

 

[PaulR]

The point that I find hard to resolve in this discussion is why 2F/E/G, which are designed and destined for 28E, should have a beam shape with the extra bulge to cover the Canaries as 1N does. It's basically for this reason that I think that the shape will more focused on the UK generally when the Canaries bulge is removed.

Of course I could be totally wrong and when 2F/E/G come on stream it could be stuation, no change. But somehow (and it's ALL speculation) I doubt it.