Using the "138MHz-4.4GHz USB SMA Source/Signal Generator/Simple Spectrum Analyzer" for TV/CATV/SAT

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
Quick note: I found a bug, which was corrected. If you downloaded the software in the last hour, please download it again!

Regards,
Vitor
 

Tururu

Assembled with recycled parts
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,849
Reaction score
964
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 56 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

Octagon SF8008 4K Twin, VU+Duo², VU+Ultimo4K.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
OK.:)

Sorry, copy the data incorrectly 1x8, comparing with 1x4 are 8dB more lost, if possible, better use 1x2.
Disculpas, copie mal los datos de 1x8, comparando con 1x4 son 8dB mas de perdida, si se puede, mejor usar 1x2.

Splitter.
1x2= -4dB
1x3= -10dB
1x4= -11dB
1x6= -17dB
1x8= -18'5dB
 

jeallen01

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
2,630
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
Tururu

I have taken your advice and just used a simple and cheap 2-way splitter, and it works pretty well - so the Split8/AS will be going back (unused) in the next few days. Many thanks for that advice as it has saved me a few £'s.:)

vma

Thanks for the very latest updated s/w - will download tomorrow, and will make sure I use the latest .ini files (pr0vided I can work out how to replace the default ones - might be "difficult", knowing "me").
BTW: we owe you an awful lot for what you have shown can be done with the SSA:-applause
 
Last edited:

John

Enthusiast.
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
3,742
Reaction score
5,545
Points
113
Location
North Nottinghamshire.
My Satellite Setup
Elite 2.2 PF - CM1.8 - CM1.2 - Gibertini 1.25.
Ku - Ka -C & Ext C.
PC cards-TM5402 receivers.
Promax FSM.
My Location
North Nottinghamshire.
New version uploaded.

Seems that the matching issues were mainly due to outdated/wrong satellite transponder lists!

Tip: the less *.ini files you use, the better the results.

I have tested much more satellites now and some will simply not work right. They use the same transponders as other satellites and/or the respective *.ini file is not OK.

Please provide feedback.

Attention: Users outside the EU have to replace the default *.ini files with files matching their satellites!

Regards,
Vitor


Hi Vitor, at this stage of your development for satellite recognition, are screen grabs of a more bespoke 18GHz or other Ka bands of any use , with frequency span grabs showing frequencies used on adhoc sng feeds ?.
I have a grab at the moment of a pretty busy 18GHz showing 8 frequencies for the satellite position of Astra 1L @ 19.2° East. ?.
 

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
Hi. currently, the software only handles transponder lists with Ku and C band
Frequencies. I forgot about Ka frequencies! In order to implement them, I need sample lists with Ka frequencies. And I need to know the LOF for them, too.

I am not at home tonight and writing from my phone, which is almost discharged. Later on I explain how it works in more detail.

Regards,
Vitor
 

jeallen01

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
2,630
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
FWIW, you can download satellite ".ini" files from http://satellites-xml.eu/ - but, since I haven't any current Ka band kit, I don't know which sats broadcast in the Ka band. Thus, maybe, someone who does can check which birds do that, and confirm if this site list provides .ini files for those as well as for the transponders in the Ku band.
 

skomedal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
2,112
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
This and that
My Location
thule

skomedal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
2,112
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
This and that
My Location
thule
FWIW, you can download satellite ".ini" files from http://satellites-xml.eu/ - but, since I haven't any current Ka band kit, I don't know which sats broadcast in the Ka band. Thus, maybe, someone who does can check which birds do that, and confirm if this site list provides .ini files for those as well as for the transponders in the Ku band.

Yep

Hi- lighted your uncertainties/doubts
 

jeallen01

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
2,630
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
skomedal

WELL, I DO NOT consider that to be grounds for "dissing" me because all I said was that, having no current kit or interest in the Ka band, I don't actually KNOW - that's NOT, I repeat NOT" a reason for "dissing" anyone for ignorance, unless you consider than anyone who does not KNOW something that you think they "should" is worthy of "distain".

Simple ignorance of some facts IS NOT the same as blatantly just choosing to say something that manifestly incorrect, as compared with what YOU know, or is deliberately fabricated to project a warped picture of a situation - otherwise you are condemning a vast part of the population of the 2nd/3rd World simply because they don't have the level of education and experience that those in the 1st World do have.:rolleyes:.

PS: I do hope that the forum mods will take due note of where this post might lead if it does "go" in this "direction" - and that does not bode well!
 
Last edited:

skomedal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
2,112
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
This and that
My Location
thule
WELL, I DO NOT consider that to be grounds for "dissing" me because all I said was that, having no current kit or interest in the Ka band, I don't actually KNOW - that's NOT, I repeat NOT" a reason for "dissing" anyone for ignorance,

OK we can call it in this case " talking out of your b*m " and do respectfully hope you get your mind/facts in gear before posting anything you know nothing about or means of testing.

End of rant
 

PaulR

Dazed and Confused Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Messages
18,024
Reaction score
4,046
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
-----------See sig-----------
My Location
Wirral, NW UK and Vaucluse, France.
OK chaps, that's enough. Handbags away please.

I can't say what might or might not be true as this is not my area at all but exchanges of differences should be in moderate language.
 

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
Hi,

Back on topic:

The algorithm I programmed initially could only use manually created frequency lists in IF frequencies (aka 950MHz-2150MHz for satellites). This is the format the software is currently exporting the transponders found.
This is all nice, when it comes to recognizing satellites which were "learned" by the software due to the user saving those lists in the beginning and naming them after the satellites. This would work with ANY transponder list, including CATV, radio, C-band, Ku-band, C-band, etc. Let's call it the "old version".

However, this was not satifying for me, because the kick was to recognize satellites which the user doesn't know in first place! So I changed the algorithm to handle standard transponder *.ini files (like the ones generated by different web sites - and mind you, the quality of some *.ini files is questionable, to say the least).

What my software does is to read such file in, separating the VL, HL, VH and HH bands, since only one of those bands are rendered in the spectrum at a given moment: one *.ini file is therefore transformed internally into 4 different satellites (same name, but with VL, HL, VH and HH addon). Also, I down-converted the RF frequencies to IF frequencies, using internally either 9750MHz or 10600MHz as a LOF (and a switch frequency of 11700MHz) . This is necessary, because the spectrum is obviously handling IF frequencies, while the *.ini files contain RF frequencies. That was "new version 1".

Then it occured to me, that I had forgotten about C-band! So I added two additional internal lists per satellite (6 in total) for C-band V and C-band H, converting the RF to IF using a LOF of -5150MHz (the sign is to represent the inverted spectrum). That is "new version 2". Side note: I need feedback if satellite identification works in C-band!

Now John pointed out that there are of course Ka-band satellites! Again, I forgot about those and I don't have any experience in Ka band (I do have a few LNB's, but none is operational and/or I cannot receive a suitable beam). Anyway, there is this doubt I have: in Ka band, there are many different bands, actually. Each using their own LOF. In V and H polarisation. Is there any Low/High band , too? How do Ka-band transponders look like in *.ini files? I guess it is more complicated here...

But there could be a workaround: I could (and probably will) add an option, where the user selects between the "old version" and the "new version 2": while "old version" works with any previously trained transponder list (everything is handled in IF frequencies), "new version 2" will work with plain *.ini files for Ku- and C-band.

Otherwise, I think it will get messy, since there will be always new bands and I *think* that only Ku- and C-band transponders are really supported in *.ini files. Even here, most *.ini files contain a lot of garbage, which messes up the results: if someone once saw a feed at some odd frequency, said frequency will be listed forever... Also, most *.ini files contain transponders from totally different beams/regions. Example: you can't receive South American transponders on Hispasat in Europe, but having those in the *.ini file, however, will possibly cause false results on other satellites, which share those transponder frequencies.

The less satellites and transponders are in the transponder_list folder, the better the results.

All in all, I think I will keep both approaches and the user can select which one to use: standard *.ini files for Ku and C, custom *.txt files for any kind of transponders on any band.

Regards,
Vitor
 

jeallen01

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
2,630
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
Hi,

The less satellites and transponders are in the transponder_list folder, the better the results..

Regards,
Vitor
vma
As I understand the .ini files, I think that users could edit those to remove unwanted transponders, or simply leave just a few for each satellite in order to to use the sat identification feature - thus, just leaving the ones they want, before they load them into the s/w (or am I misguided on that point?).
 

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
Hi,

Yes, one could edit the *.ini files. But that requires a LOT of work, as there are many satellites and one would need to know WHICH transponders to delete: certainly those belonging to beams that are outside the coverage.

My algorithm attempts to be "clever" in just taking the default *.ini files and using them without requiring the user to edit them. This saves all the manual preparatory work and offers something interesting: one can recognize a new satellite, which was not trained (= had it's *.ini file edited).

Imagine this: you get yourself a new C-band antenna. This is new to you and you have no experience. The dish is prime focus mesh as opposed to an offset dish, hence the angles are different. You start rotating the dish and suddenly some transponders show up on the spectrum. With my software, you *SHOULD* get the name of the satellite, even without setting up custom edited *.ini lists and with a signal that is too low for the receiver to lock it and show the NIT.

That is the driving force for me! And I know that I will never be able to get 100% accurate results. Why? Let's take Sirius 4.8E (Astra 4) as an example: in my location I cannot identify this satellite with regular *.ini lists, because I only receive few beams. Most transponders are outside the coverage zone for me. Hence I can only recognize around 6 transponders on each band. Bad luck: there are other satellites like Astra 19.2E that use the same frequencies. This should still result in my software showing Astra AND Sirius. But it doesn't show Sirius, because of the 6 transponders, one is not present in the *.ini file. Why? Because it is probably a transponder from 5.0E (SES 5), which is listed as a different satellite on a separate *.ini file! So the score would be 6 out of 6 for Astra and 5 out of 6 for Sirius. Still, for my reception system (dish, LNB, receiver & SMA device) 4.8E and 5.0E are virtually the same satellite (fleet).

Using my "old" method, you would grab the transponder lists of each satellite yourself. This would allow for 100% accurate matches, as each satellite only contains exactly the transponders that you can actually receive.

The downside is that this method requires the user to "train" the algorithm by creating all transponder lists (in Ku band, that's 4 separate lists per satellite).

What I am doing is actually plain research: I am trying to improve the algorithm for "satellite identification through transponder pattern matching". This could well be turned into an academic paper, btw.

Regards,
Vitor
 

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
Something like this:

35MHz-4.4GHz 35M-4.4G USB SMA Source/Signal Generator/Simple Spectrum Analyzer | eBay

Search eBay for: "SMA Source/Signal Generator/Simple Spectrum Analyzer"

There are two models: 35MHz-4.4GHz or 138MHz-4.4GHz. The first uses the ADF4351, the second the ADF4350. Naturally it is better to have the first one, as the extra frequencies cover i.e. FM radio.

However, I currently only have the 138MHz-4.4GHz model, but I am waiting for the other model to arrive! :)

Then there are the more expensive models NWT4000-1 and NWT4000-2. Those feature two ADF4350 or ADF4351, respectively. This can be used with the original WinNWT sofwtare for antena matching, SWF measurements, etc. My software currently does not support the enhanced functionality, but the devices should work with my software.

Finally, there are the original NWT500 devices, which do NOT work with my software and newer NWT6000 models, which apparently do work with my software, but I don't have a certain feedback.

Regards,
Vitor
 

jeallen01

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Messages
6,674
Reaction score
2,630
Points
113
My Satellite Setup
See Signature
My Location
Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
Vitor

Re your last post and edited transponder list - maybe, in time, we could each generate and test just a few of them and develop a collection of them for mutual use somewhere in this part of the forum? That way, the time/effort required from each person would be relatively small.
 

vma

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
455
Points
63
Location
Portugal
Website
vma-satellite.blogspot.pt
My Satellite Setup
RX: 3 motorized DiSEqC-1.2 dishes (100cm, 110cm, 120cm) + 7 regular dishes.
Main receiver: Vu+ Duo + many others & IRD
TX: Modulators for DVB-S/C/T + Dektec Modulators
Field Meter: Emitor, KWS, Kathrein, Unaohm, Promax, Spaun, Rover Instruments, ...
My Location
Portugal
The problem with this approach is that every one of us lives in different geographic regions, hence with a different coverage map!

People in Germany can hardly receive the BBC beam from Astra2.
People in Portugal find it hard to get certain transponders easily received in Germany.
And so on...

That is exactly the problem with the *.ini files! They are not wrong per se (apart from containing some garbage transponders, occasionally) - they just contain ALL transponders of a satellite, including the ones one annot locally receive with the current equipment.

To fix that, we would need a set of *.ini files for every geographic region. This is not practical, hence I try to improve my algorithm!

Regards,
Vitor
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,609
Reaction score
8,579
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
Hi,

Yes, one could edit the *.ini files. But that requires a LOT of work, as there are many satellites and one would need to know WHICH transponders to delete: certainly those belonging to beams that are outside the coverage.

My algorithm attempts to be "clever" in just taking the default *.ini files and using them without requiring the user to edit them. This saves all the manual preparatory work and offers something interesting: one can recognize a new satellite, which was not trained (= had it's *.ini file edited).

Imagine this: you get yourself a new C-band antenna. This is new to you and you have no experience. The dish is prime focus mesh as opposed to an offset dish, hence the angles are different. You start rotating the dish and suddenly some transponders show up on the spectrum. With my software, you *SHOULD* get the name of the satellite, even without setting up custom edited *.ini lists and with a signal that is too low for the receiver to lock it and show the NIT.

That is the driving force for me! And I know that I will never be able to get 100% accurate results. Why? Let's take Sirius 4.8E (Astra 4) as an example: in my location I cannot identify this satellite with regular *.ini lists, because I only receive few beams. Most transponders are outside the coverage zone for me. Hence I can only recognize around 6 transponders on each band. Bad luck: there are other satellites like Astra 19.2E that use the same frequencies. This should still result in my software showing Astra AND Sirius. But it doesn't show Sirius, because of the 6 transponders, one is not present in the *.ini file. Why? Because it is probably a transponder from 5.0E (SES 5), which is listed as a different satellite on a separate *.ini file! So the score would be 6 out of 6 for Astra and 5 out of 6 for Sirius. Still, for my reception system (dish, LNB, receiver & SMA device) 4.8E and 5.0E are virtually the same satellite (fleet).

Using my "old" method, you would grab the transponder lists of each satellite yourself. This would allow for 100% accurate matches, as each satellite only contains exactly the transponders that you can actually receive.

The downside is that this method requires the user to "train" the algorithm by creating all transponder lists (in Ku band, that's 4 separate lists per satellite).

What I am doing is actually plain research: I am trying to improve the algorithm for "satellite identification through transponder pattern matching". This could well be turned into an academic paper, btw.

Regards,
Vitor

Does your programme use the default transponder frequencies of the satellite (by which I mean the Boeing/Hughes/Astrium) maufacturer ? If yes then each of these has a specific beacon frequency which would - even without having the data that goes with it - identify the bird from the others above the installation.
With many orbital slots containing more than one satellite, it 'should' be relatively easy to script something that provides the user a position by combining the beacon frequencies found in the initial search.
 
Top