Very poor reception 1.2m dish in Madrid

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6
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My Satellite Setup
ChannelMaster 1.2m, Invocom 0,3db LNB, Panasonic 20, Thomson 160
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#1
Hi,
I live in Torrelodones about 30km northwest of Madrid and have had my 1.2m ChannelMaster dish up and working for several years, using an Invacom 0,3 Universal LNB and a Panasonic TU-DSB20 (I think) original Sky box. I am able to recieve all channels except the 2d (BBC etc.) 24x7. BBC etc. ¡s very poor never watchable.
I just bought a second hand Thomson 160 Sky+ box on eBay and plugged it in, I even ran a second cable down from the dish. But to my disappointment, I loose even the default transponder for a few hours between 5 and 8 (just when the kids want to watch cartoons!!).
1. Is this normal?
I thought that the 1.2m dish should be fine for the non 2d channels...
2. Is my dish badly oriented (I put it up myself...)
I have tried moving it about a bit in the past and it only got worse...
3. Does the Thomson have a much worse tuner than the Panasonic?

One thing I notice is that the signal strength seems quite high when I loose the signal (60%+) but I get no Signal Quality is this normal?

Many thanks...
Ian
 

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
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My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#2
Welcome to the forum Ian, posting a couple of pictures of your setup may well help members to help you, particulalry of the LNB and feedhorn .

It could well be that your dish is slightly off on alignment, but also LNB Skew/focal length may be wrong.
 
Messages
6
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0
My Satellite Setup
ChannelMaster 1.2m, Invocom 0,3db LNB, Panasonic 20, Thomson 160
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#3
Thanks for the welcome,
I'll take some photos tonight.

The LNB I have has a built in feed horn, would it be much better with an adjustable one?

Ian
 

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
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My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#4
Yes, a channel master feedhorn should produce dividends Ian, the feedhorn is perfectly matched to the dish. :)
 
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6
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0
My Satellite Setup
ChannelMaster 1.2m, Invocom 0,3db LNB, Panasonic 20, Thomson 160
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#5
Would I need to change the LNB then? or can I fit the feed horn as well? Also how much would it cost and where would I buy?

Thanks, Ian
 

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
37,676
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1,279
My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#6
You will need a new c120 LNB to match the feedhorn, not sure of prices I'm afraid.

This post shows a Channel Master 1.2 with feedhorn and C120 LNB

Been looking at some of the reports for Madrid, but there aren't any recent ones around, so not sure how much you will pick up off 2D, the dish may need some very careful tweaking.

Our member Snap installs in Madrid, he should be able to confirm what is receivable. :)
 

michael01707

Regular Member
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My Satellite Setup
Channel Master 1.2m and 1.8m, Vantage VT-X221TS CI and 8000s, Technomate V-Box II, 18" Superjack actuator
My Location
London
#7
I've read somewhere before that Sky+ boxes don't have as good tuners as standard Sky receivers.
 
Messages
6
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0
My Satellite Setup
ChannelMaster 1.2m, Invocom 0,3db LNB, Panasonic 20, Thomson 160
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#8
Hi,
here are some photos that I took this morning...

One thing I noticed that I had forgotten about is that to make the dish fit on the stand, I had to put some shims in because the stand pole is too narrow. I guess that this might mean that the dish is not 100% vertical. How much could this affect things?

I also noticed that the signal strengh and quality has changed from last night, I guess that's normal but what seemed strange to me was the ratios of strength to quality for the two inputs: (aprox, I'll take photos...)
input 1 night: 80/20
input 2 night: 90/80
input 1 morn: 80/20
input 2 morn: 80/50
Do the two inputs measure different things? (like Vertical and Horizontal)

Cheers, Ian
 

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dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
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70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#9
Losing the default transponder between 5 and 8 p.m. is quite common in Spain, and is a sign that either the LNB is poor, or needs to have the skew setting changed.
Skew is much more critical on high band than the low band that 2D signals are on, and the default transponder 4 11778 V is the most sensitive to skew errors.
Another cause can be slight mis- alignment of the dish.
The Invacom universal (all -in-one) is only an average performer, which is why some people are disappointed. The models SNH-031, TWH-031 and QDH-031 are the LNBF models, and are for use in dishes up to 1.2m in fringe areas.
The models SNF-031, TWF-031 and QDF-031 are considerably better for weak signals, and the QDF-031 the best of all.
The reason for this is the feedhorn at the front of the LNB. The LNBF models have a small integrated feed, whereas the 'F' models have a C120 plate for attaching a separate feedhorn, which will provide a better match for a larger dish. Satellite signals are such high frequencies, they behave almost optically, so a matched feedhorn will focus the signals better just as a better quality lens on a telescope will focus weak light.

The old Panasonic you have is one of the slowest models ever made, but in common with the DSB 30 and 40 it had a very good tuner for weak signals.
The Thomson you bought is obviously worse. You could try the Pace Sky+ V3.
It's quite normal for signal strength to be reasonable, but with no quality, in the early evening where you are. The signal strength varies between LNBs.

Your remedy for all the problems is simple, however: fit a Quad Invacom QDF-031 with a Andrew/ ChannelMaster feed, and adjust the dish alignment (which is clearly out) and LNB skew using a digital meter. After this BBC One and ITV 1-4 will be receivable about 22 hours/ day. BBC One Channle Islands ?East should be 24 hours/ day.
BBC2/ C Beebies/ CBBC/ News24/ will be receivable mornings till about 11-12 am.
 

dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
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70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#10
Just read your second post which went up while I was writing.
The dish support has to be 100% perpendicular in all directions, if not reception is badly affected.
The quality results on the two inputs reflect whichever frequency the two tuners happen to be receiving. If you set the box to record two channels at once, say Channel Four first and then Sky news, the top bar will meter 12168 V and the bottom one 12207 V. Normally tuner 2 is idle and remains at the the last channel it was set to record from.
 
Messages
6
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
ChannelMaster 1.2m, Invocom 0,3db LNB, Panasonic 20, Thomson 160
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#11
Thanks Snap,

I was kind of waiting for you to reply :-)

Where would be the best plase to get the LNB and feed horn here in Madrid? Also, roughly how much are we talking about?
As for realigning the dish and skew, I don't have a signal meter, so I guess I need the help of someone who does. How much would it cost me for you or one of your guys to help me out?

Cheers, Ian
 

dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
Likes
70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#12
This Andrew CM/ Invacom feed/ LNB combination will cost around €200. The feeds are very difficult to get hold of. There is one online shop in the UK that sells them, the LNB's are easier, Invacom sell them direct from their website.
You can send a private message to me if you wish.
 

Arturuk

Regular Member
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10
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0
My Satellite Setup
Astra1/hotbird/hispasat
My Location
Europe
#13
I am not an expert but I wonder....

wouldn't an lnb like this with a lower noise figure be better?

Best-Germany HQDL 404 Plus Quad LNB 0,1dB


ebay 260160524416
 

rolfw

Believe it when I see it Admin.
Staff member
Messages
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My Satellite Setup
Technomate 5402 HD M2 Ci, DM7000s, Transparent 80cm Dish, Moteck SG2100 DiseqC motor, lots of legacy gear. Meters: Satlook Digital NIT, Promax HD Ranger+ spectrum analyser.
My Location
Berkshire
#14
No, not for a 1.2m Channel Master, one of the recommended C120 LNBs and matched Channel Master feed horn are the ideal solution.

LNBs with integrated feed horns are a compromise, one size fits all and very rarely will they precisely illuminate the dish face. Also, take the stated noise figure with a pinch of salt. ;)
 

dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
Likes
70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#15
Arturuk said:
wouldn't an lnb like this with a lower noise figure be better?

Best-Germany HQDL 404 Plus Quad LNB 0,1dB


ebay 260160524416
You should take a hint from the name of this e Bay seller: 'gangsterprice'
All LNB's which have a noise figure less than 0.3 are an attempt to rip off the customer, it is impossible to go below 0.3dB.

The more outlandish the claim (0.1 dB, as here, complete with scantily -clothed woman) the more suspicious should the buyer become.
 
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1
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My Satellite Setup
Don't have one yet
My Location
Madrid, Spain
#16
Hi Ian,

I'll soon be moving to Torrelodones and I'm trying to find someone to install a dish to receive UK tv (Astra 2D) and wire the house up to have access to the satellite channels from various rooms. Can you recommend anyone? You say you installed your own setup, but If you know of a good installer I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks.
 
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My Satellite Setup
Pace 430, dish 2 mts.
My Location
Menorca
#18
Hello kabeza
Get in contact with Snap, he has got solutions to you problem.
 

paddyharben

Regular Member
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#19
Hi Ian

I'm not sure if there have been any developments since your last post, but I thought I'd share my impressions as my situation is similar to yours as I am in Navalcarnero - not far from you.

The biggest factor in receiving Astra 2D in our part of the world is dish size. I have a 1.8m dish, but there are still times when reception of the more problematic "horizontal" channels (e.g. BBC3/BBC4) is poor. If you could move up to 1.5m or more you should see a notable improvement.

The LNB makes a difference too. I can recommend the C120 Invacom quad which apart from giving excellent reception also has 4 separate independent outputs so you can use up to 4 boxes. There is an authorised Spanish distributor for Invacom, whose prices are reasonable. You should find contact details on Invacom's website. You could also try
_http://www.satellitesuperstore.com who can also supply the feedforn for the LNB.

It will also be interesting to see what the new BBC/ITV Freesat is like when it is launched in a few weeks. If it avoids the horizontal 2D channels this may help us all out.

Best of luck

Paddy Harben
 

dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
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70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#20
Kabeza,
Send me a private message if you want some help.
Paddy,
There will be no difference when Freesat starts, the BBC will be no easier as the frequencies will not be changing.
Not much point changing from 1.2 to 1.5m in Madrid, the cost is almost comparable to installing a 1.8m, and BBC 2 will disappear about 8pm.
You need a 1.8m Prodelin or Andrew dish to get BBC 2/3/4 later in the evenings, and the Invacom Quad.
Invacom's main agent in Spain have an English site:
www.antnetdigital.com/en/
The last time I asked they also had some ChannelMaster feedhorns in stock.
 
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