Advice Needed Techomate M5402 M3 and Diseqc setups

jeallen01

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Evening All

Having finally found the time to get the remaining 3 fixed dishes, with 4x LNBs on each, set up and aligned, I am now running into a problem with Diseqc settings on the receiver because I am trying to use cascaded Diseqc switches - i.e. one Diseqc Switch ("BEST - like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009E1G1SQ/ref=pe_1909131_77697001_tnp_email_TE_AMZLdp_1, which is claimed to be Diseqc 2.0 compatible) on each dish, all three of which are then connected to an uncommitted Diseqc 1.1 Switch (EMP Centauri S4/1PCT-W2 EMP-Centauri - DiSEqC switch S4/1PCT-W2 (P.169-TW) which is Diseqc 1.1 and can be a Diseqc 1.2 to Diseqc 1.0 transcoder) for onward transmission to the receiver.

I have now spent quite some time today trying a variety of combinations of EMP Switch Operating Mode selections (2 which is Diseqc 1.0 & 1.1 compatible, and 3 & 4) with various Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 LNB selections, and the only conclusion that I can come to is basically that only those LNBs connected to the No 1 input ports on the 3x BEST switches appear to consistently provide any readable signals at the receiver.

Let me outline the overall configuration – which follows the layout in a diagram sent to me by EMP Centauri, thus:

Dish 1 is connected to Switch 1 via Port 1 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 13E – Hotbird - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 1 of 16
- Port 2 – 19E – Astra 1 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 2 of 16
- Port 3 – 28E – Astra 2 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 3 of 16
- Port 4 – 33E – EutelSat 33E (or so I think) - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 4 of 16

Dish 2 is connected to Switch 2 via Port 2 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 0.8W – Thor 5/6/7 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 5 of 16
- Port 2 – 5W – Eutelsat 5 West A - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 6 of 16
- Port 3 – 7E – Eutelsat 7A/7B -- Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 7 of 16
- Port 4 – Not sure – could be 12.5W -- Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 8 of 16

Dish 3 is connected to Switch 3 via Port 3 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 30W – Hispasat 30W-4/W-5 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 9 of 16
- Port 2 – 24.5W – Intelsat 905 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 10 of 16
- Port 3 – 12.5W – Eutelsat 12 West B - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 11 of 16
- Port 4 – 9E - Eutelsat 9B (yes, really!) - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 12 of 16

(and port 4 on the EMP Switch is connected to one half of the Twin LNB on the steerable dish, which is currently aimed at 0.8W).

All the dish pointing and LNB configurations were done with the receiver and my analogue sat meter connected directly to the relevant BEST switch to get a good idea of directions and signal strengths and then some “fine tuning” of the azimuth and elevation, and finally confirming the satellites by viewing the channels received – so I’m pretty sure they are correctly identified.

I then connected the BEST switches to the relevant ports the EMP Switch (as above). By the way, all the cables from the LNBs to the BEST switches, and from those Switches to your Switch, are coloured coded and numbered to ensure I know which LNB is which.

Anyway, after a lot of “playing about” I finally concluded that only the LNBs connected to Dish 1 Port 1, Dish 2 Port 1 and Dish 3 Port 1 (plus the LNB on the steerable dish) can be reliably addressed – and they only need the correct Diseqc 1.1 LNB number to be input in the receiver set-up menu (in these cases, the Diseqc 1.0 LNB setting appears to be irrelevant and can be set to OFF).

In most cases, trying to select LNBs with any other Diseqc LNB numbers did not result in any signals being received, however much I tried various combinations of different Diseqc 1.0 and/or 1.1 LNB numbers.

I also tried the following:

  • Operating Modes 3 & 4 which include Diseqc 1.2 to 1.0 transcoding – didn’t seem to make much, if any, difference and so I set it back to Mode 2 where I had started (and I did disconnect the cable from the receiver to the EMP Switch after each Operating Mode change, as per the instructions)
  • Setting the receiver motor setting to Diseqc 1.2, and then USALS, when in Operating Modes 3 & 4 – did not appear to make much/any difference to the success rate of LNB selection, but slowed down the process of changing between satellites a lot because I got the “moving to XX/W” 3-4 times message each time I did that, and so I went back to the basic Diseqc 1.0/1.1 approach .
  • Disconnecting the cable from Dish 1 to Port 1 on the EMP Switch and connecting that cable back directly to the receiver – the signals from all 4 LNBs on Dish 1 could then be selected via the Diseqc 1.0 menu and were very strong – that showed that the BEST Switch and LNBs on Dish 1 are still working (and I assume that the LNBs and Switches for the other dishes will also be the same as they were not been touched after the final alignments yesterday).
I also noted that there is a noticeable signal loss through the EMP Switch, as many of the lower signal strength channels on some satellites could be locked and the pictures viewed when connected only via the BEST Switches, whereas when the EMP Switch was inserted then they would not lock up – I suppose this is to be expected as all Switches do have noticeable losses!

Therefore, have you folks any thoughts or ideas about the LNB selection problems and how I might be able solve them?

OTOH, might this be a problem with the receiver, especially Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 signal sequencing (I hope not!)

Thanks in advance.

John
 

skomedal

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Have you tried a motorised setup for these birds:D

Regards
 

4wd

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Have you tried a motorised setup
Apart from losing instant channel zap, makes recording 30w + 9E while watching 28E somewhat ...difficult?
:O)
 

skomedal

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Dish 3 is connected to Switch 3 via Port 3 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 30W – Hispasat 30W-4/W-5 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 9 of 16
- Port 2 – 24.5W – Intelsat 905 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 10 of 16
- Port 3 – 12.5W – Eutelsat 12 West B - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 11 of 16
- Port 4 – 9E - Eutelsat 9B (yes, really!) - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 12 of 16

How is this possible on one dish 30W - 9E ?

Regards
 

jeallen01

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I did set up the steerable dish with the old Icecrypt and it appeared to work with those birds I tried from 30W to 50+E, but that is not the objective of the current job - which is to get the TM working with the fixed dishes for relatively easy/quick access to all the main birds via Diseqc switching on the fixed dishes.

The "ultimate" objective is to have the 3x fixed dishes system working with the TM and the steerable dish with the VU+ - and possibly cross-connection to allow the TM to access the 2nd half of the twin LNB on the steerable dish as well.

Possibly a long-shot objective, but, Hey, what is life without challenges? (Answer = a lot less pain and stress, but then I like challenges, or at least those I can deal with - hopefully, this is one of those, but we will see?)

PS: I know that some of the senior guys on the forum have a lot of experience with Diseqc systems, and would much appreciate their inputs - even if that is "don't go there", because that will save a lot of that "pain and stress", and expense!
 

jeallen01

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skomedal

I knew someone might wonder and ask that question!

The reply is that I centred the dish on 12.5W, and then extended the multiple-LNB support quite a long way either side to mount the 30W/24.5W LNBs at the end on one side and the 9E LNB at the end on the other.

The ends of these extended supports are then rigidly linked to the two LNB support arm stabilising links I added from the sides of the dish to the main LNB arm so that that is rigidly located (it has to be anyway because the dish is at head-height in the narrow path down the side of my garage, and so I knock it almost every time I go right to the bottom of the garden!). Will post some photos in due course.

PS: I was surprised myself when I found a signal from the (now) 9E LNB, but I then locked up and viewed some channels from it- and found them to be on 9E!
 

a33

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Hi @jeallen01 ,

Did you also try, after you arrived in uncommitted input 1/committed 1, to switch to committed 2, 3 and 4?
If that would work, then it's a (simple) sequence matter or repeat matter.

If not, the problem could be more difficult, I would think.
Did you try other committed switches in this setup? Did they show the same problem?

What options do you have in your diseqc menu? Anything like higher voltage or amplitude of 22kHz signal; or 'fast diseqc' (or whatever it is called in your receiver)?

Edit: In the manual of the EMP I see they sometimes recommend to set dipswitch 4 to ON when cascading switches. Did you try that as well? Though I don't know what the effect of that switch would be.....

Greetz,
A33
 
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jeallen01

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A33

Because the instructions state that Mode 1 is for receivers with Diseqc 1.0 control (only), I started in Mode 2 which is for receivers with both 1.0 and 1.1, later tried Modes 3 & 4, and then went back to Mode 2 because of the "moving to" messages. I did not try putting dipswitch 4 to ON because I'm not cascading external switches after the EMP.

Don't think the TM has the menu options to which you referred, but I doubt the voltage issue applies because there is less than 10m of cable between the EMP and the receiver, and less than 3m between the EMP and 2 of the 3 BEST switches (the other one is further away).
 

jeallen01

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Update:

EMP has now told me that setting dipswitch 4 to ON causes the switch to repeat the Diseqc 1.0/1.1 commands to connected switches and so on, and suggested that I do that - which I did.

Next, I re-did the Switch and LNB Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 configuration according to the list in a diagram that they sent me for all 12 LNBs on the 3 BEST switches - (been trying to insert a link to the Dropbox Public Folders file of the diagram - but keep getting Error 404 - Grrh!)

I then selected and tried to access various of the 12 satellites – and unfortunately found that it made little or no difference to the actual LNBs selected, with the BEST switch Inlet port “1” LNBs almost always being those that were automatically selected, BUT the correct Inlet 1 port on the EMP switch for that BEST switch was always correctly selected. That meant when, for example, I chose LNB 4 on Dish 3, which should choose 9E and did a channel scan I actually found that I was getting channels that are on Hispasat at 30W (i.e. LNB 1 on Dish 3).

Finally, and after trying a lot of other possible things on various satellites and to avoid any confusion, I completely deleted the existing channel list on the receiver. That left the list of satellites still there but with no channels listed on any of them.

I then looked at LNBs 1, 2, 3 & 4 which are on Dish/BEST switch 1 for 13E, 19E, 28E & (I think 33E) respectively as I already knew that I appeared to be receiving none of the previously-listed channels on 28E but always those from on 13E.

I then selected the nominal 28E satellite which was/is shown as Diseqc 1.0 input 3 & Diseqc 1.1 input 1, and did a fairly long Blind Search on “that” satellite – and got a large number (nearly 1000 before I stopped the search) of channels but they are clearly all from 13E s and not from 28E (I have Lygnsat printouts of channels on 13E, 28E and all the other satellites in the list ).

I then adjusted the Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 input selections in the menus on a channel where an actual signal was shown to be present – and found that altering the 1.0 selection made no difference, but altering the 1.1 selection to anything but “1” (i.e. BEST switch 1 for Dish 1, i.e. for 13E) made the channel signal drop out immediately but it would then come back again when I reselected Diseqc1.1 = “1”.

BTW: On this receiver, the Diseqc 1.1 menu only allows you to select 1 to 16 of 16 LNBs, whereas on the Diseqc menu on the Icecrypt that I had previously, you could select 1 of 2 (i.e. mini-Diseqc), 1 to 4 of 4 (i.e. Diseqc 1.0), 1 to 8 of 8 or 1 to 16 of 16 (both Diseqc 1.1 I assume) – not sure if that would make any actual difference here as I guess that most people would generally not have more than 6-8 LNBs anyway and so – if this model of receiver could initially have caused a selection problem to those people then it would have been sorted out by now as the model is several years old.

Therefore, as I did all three separate Dish & LNB setups using the relevant BEST switches (which, it appears, actually claim to be DiSEqC 2.0 compliant) using the Diseqc 1.0 selection from the receiver with no issues, I believe that I can be pretty confident that the receiver itself is correctly and consistently outputting the correct 1.0 commands to the EMP switch, but that the EMP switch is apparently not correctly transmitting those 1.0 commands onwards to the BEST switches - and that conclusion is consistent all that I have observed over the last couple of days since I connected those switches to the EMP switch.

Your thoughts ?
 
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Analoguesat

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I know Vipersan has a hellish complicated switch cascade in his set up. Not sure which receiver he is using but I dont think its a TM.

Have you thought about setting everything up as "motorised" disecq 1.2 on one switch? I have a 16 way switch on my TM5402 and it works fine with 13 or 14 ports connected. Switching is more or less instantaneous between channels on different birds, I only see "moving dish" messages when searching multiple satellites and its switching between birds.
 

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I know Vipersan has a hellish complicated switch cascade in his set up. Not sure which receiver he is using but I dont think its a TM.

Have you thought about setting everything up as "motorised" disecq 1.2 on one switch? I have a 16 way switch on my TM5402 and it works fine with 13 or 14 ports connected. Switching is more or less instantaneous between channels on different birds, I only see "moving dish" messages when searching multiple satellites and its switching between birds.

The voice of reason Re #2, simpler setup:eek:

Regards
 

jeallen01

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Hi again.
Would love to know more detail about Analogue's settings because the devil WILL be in the detail!

OTOH, I still think there is a comms problem between the EMP and BEST switches - waiting for EMP's responses on the issues in my most recent post, which I sent to them before posting it here
 

skomedal

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:-doh
 
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jeallen01

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Will do tomorrow and I think it would be interesting for a lot of other people
 

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My 16 way is an EMP-Centauri Disecq 16/1 and branded Atevia Premium Line on the outer plastic cover.

It came from Sat Europa a couple of years ago - cant get to the link I saved atm - the web site is just timing out. . Setup is simple on the TM. Set the onboard dips to 1.2, set the receiver up and away you go.

Previously I had it set up as 1.1 on the Skybox F5 and that worked nicely too.
 

jeallen01

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Analoguesat.

Many thanks for the reply.

I am guessing that that EMP switch is going to be rather expensive, but I've asked for a price list to see how much it does cost.

However, I still have that 10-way switch from another supplier and that did work with the TM on 8 inputs under Diseqc 1.1 as far as I recollect. Therefore I think I will get some more cable (which, anyway, I would have to do to use that new EMP switch, and try to set that up again with 10 inputs as I probably do need only that number (cost me quite a lot to get where I am and I don't really want to spend much more (or time!) ) to get this lot set up - I have probably spent nearly £60 so far on stuff that I will probably now have to put to one side :-( )

PS: anyone want my current - and thus probably redundant! - EMP 4-way Diseqc 1.1 switch and/or 3x BEST Diseqc 1.0 switches for a "good price" to help offset the spend so far?
 

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No prob - I think the 16/1 switch was the best part of £50 so its quite an investment.

Put a post in the for sale section with some hoped for prices on them - someone might be interested. However its always useful to have a spare 4/1 switch in your spares box :)
 

jeallen01

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Analoguesat.

Thanks for the price indication - and, if it comes to it, then there will be an ad in the Classifieds (obviously!).
 

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Ah! After more careful reading, I think I see the problem now.

Your mentioning of ¨On this receiver, the Diseqc 1.1 menu only allows you to select 1 to 16 of 16 LNBs¨ gave me the clue, because that is absolutely right: diseqc 1.1 allows 16 switching possibilities, multiplied with the 4 switching possibillities of diseqc 1.0, gives the possibility of 64 LNB's when using universal LNB's.
As this is right and you were wondering about it, I read the whole topic back and found that you have "abnormal" settings in your first post.

You should only use diseqc 1.1 inputs 1, 2 and 3 (of 16) if you only use these EMP-ports, and define your BEST-switch under diseqc 1.0 as (everytime) 1-2-3-4 or A-B-C-D or whatever it is called in your receiver.

If that doesn't work (I don't know the specs of the EMP-switch!), choose inputs 1, 5 and 9 (of 16) for the first 3 inputs of the switch. (It depends on how the switch commands are defined in your receiver and switch.)

So, it should be like this: [Click to expand!]

Dish 1 is connected to Switch 1 via Port 1 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 13E – Hotbird - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 1 of 16
- Port 2 – 19E – Astra 1 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 2 of 16
- Port 3 – 28E – Astra 2 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 3 of 16
- Port 4 – 33E – EutelSat 33E (or so I think) - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 4 of 16
These should be diseqc 1.1 1of16, and diseqc 1.0 1-2-3-4

Dish 2 is connected to Switch 2 via Port 2 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 0.8W – Thor 5/6/7 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 5 of 16
- Port 2 – 5W – Eutelsat 5 West A - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 6 of 16
- Port 3 – 7E – Eutelsat 7A/7B -- Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 7 of 16
- Port 4 – Not sure – could be 12.5W -- Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 8 of 16
These should be diseqc 1.1 2of16 (or 5of16), and diseqc 1.0 1-2-3-4

Dish 3 is connected to Switch 3 via Port 3 on the EMP Switch, and has these LNB connections:
- Port 1 – 30W – Hispasat 30W-4/W-5 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 9 of 16
- Port 2 – 24.5W – Intelsat 905 - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 10 of 16
- Port 3 – 12.5W – Eutelsat 12 West B - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 11 of 16
- Port 4 – 9E - Eutelsat 9B (yes, really!) - Becomes Diseqc 1.1 LNB 12 of 16
These should be diseqc 1.1 3of16 (or 9of16), and diseqc 1.0 1-2-3-4

(and port 4 on the EMP Switch is connected to one half of the Twin LNB on the steerable dish, which is currently aimed at 0.8W).
This should be diseqc 1.1 4of16 (or 13of16)

Can you try this?

BTW Higher voltage is sometimes helpful if a switch doesnt manage power stability well, and resets to port 1. That was the reason for my question, but that seems superfluous now...:)

greetz,
A33

Edit: I think the dipswitches of the EMP define the inputnumbers 1-5-9-13 in your case.
Maybe with only dipswitch 1 ON, you could use 1-2-3-4 (of 16), or 1-3-5-7 (or 9-11-13-15, for that matter).
But if 1-5-9-13 works in your case, no need to investigate this further.....
 
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