Adjusting dish to Hotbird using Sky mini dish

[Mickha]

Can you please post some photographs, of the dish, LNB's, and bracket, as you are quite some distance out, aiming for 19.2E, but getting 28.2E.
If you are getting 13E, and 28.2E, then you should be able to get a bracket, or alter the one you have, to get 13E, 19.2E, and 28.2E, possibly as well as 23.5E, if required.

 

[Copecchia]

The dish is a Zone 1 MK4 type.

 

[Copecchia]

Sorry, right now this is what I have, as soon as it gets dry I will go out and get few more close ups.

 

[Copecchia]

Can you please post some photographs, of the dish, LNB's, and bracket, as you are quite some distance out, aiming for 19.2E, but getting 28.2E.
If you are getting 13E, and 28.2E, then you should be able to get a bracket, or alter the one you have, to get 13E, 19.2E, and 28.2E, possibly as well as 23.5E, if required.

Although the picture posted, I doubt I would be able to get all 4 sats on a single bracket with a small sized dish like the Zone 1 I am using. What is happening now is that with the same spacing between a typical 13e, 19.2e I am getting 28.2 instead which means that I would need to get the second LNB almost attached on the side of 13e cenetered on the disk which is not possible because of the way the LNB Holder is as the tightening screw of the collar is placed right on the side where I should align 19.2 and it does add a 2 cm spacing enough to get out of line to beam with 19.2. If you know what I mean as dish is smaller the same spacing obtained with a larger dish is proportionally decreased thus needing 19.2E to sit litterally attached to the side of 13E, this is why I thought or I am hoping that a 3 Degrees mono-block could solve the issue.

 

[Mickha]

I would go for a bigger dish, at least a 60cm, but perhaps even bigger, maybe a Penta 85cm, or just an 80cm dish.
It all depends on what you want, and if there is a problem, using a larger dish.

 

[Copecchia]

I just downgraded from an 80cm dish because landlord did not like it. I have no choice than sticking with this one unfortunately although is just great for me that I can get to 13E without issues even in bad weather. Since 28.2E is also coming in smoothly, I just I have to find a way like either another collar or modifying the existing one to allow the LNB to sit right next to the other or try one of those 3 Degrees Mono blocks. If I knew a way to calculate spacing of LNB's in respect to size of Dish I would go ahead and try with the latter without messing about the current LNB collar.

 

[Archive4]

Not sure about a 3 degree monoblock, not had one to play with, but if I were to hazard a guess, a 4.3 degree monoblock designed for a 60 or 80 dish should achieve what your after on a zone one dish ( not that I know much about zone 1 dishes, they don´t work here! )

 

[Ghostleader]

I really think you should push it and use a Zone 2 dish mate, and I speak from personal experience.

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[Mickha]

I just downgraded from an 80cm dish because landlord did not like it. I have no choice than sticking with this one unfortunately although is just great for me that I can get to 13E without issues even in bad weather. Since 28.2E is also coming in smoothly, I just I have to find a way like either another collar or modifying the existing one to allow the LNB to sit right next to the other or try one of those 3 Degrees Mono blocks. If I knew a way to calculate spacing of LNB's in respect to size of Dish I would go ahead and try with the latter without messing about the current LNB collar.

You are supposed to be allowed upto a 1 Metre dish, without applying for planning permission, in most cases, and the landlord might not have the right to enforce such a small dish.
You might want to check with your local Citizens Advice, to see if you are allowed to put up a larger dish, without the landlord stopping you, although it might be best just to show him some pictures, of a few dishes, and see which he might allow, just explain that the 45cm is too small, for what you need.

 

[Ghostleader]

Mickha, what your saying there is true, but Landlords can be total bell ends, I think a happy medium here would be a Zone 2 dish.

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[Copecchia]

You are supposed to be allowed upto a 1 Metre dish, without applying for planning permission, in most cases, and the landlord might not have the right to enforce such a small dish.
You might want to check with your local Citizens Advice, to see if you are allowed to put up a larger dish, without the landlord stopping you, although it might be best just to show him some pictures, of a few dishes, and see which he might allow, just explain that the 45cm is too small, for what you need.

I forgot to mention that the order came from the planning office as I live in a conservation area and thus there are tuffer regulations that those enforced on normal areas. Fortunately for me, as I had a zone 1 dish previous to the 80cm one that I had to remove, the smaller one is immune from planning regulations as it was there for more than 4 years.

 

[a33]

I have seen on ebay that there are some 3 degrees monoblock LNB available but I would not want to buy one without first knowing that 3 degrees is what I need exactly to achieve this setup.
Is there a fixed schema to calculate the right degrees factor based on the size of the dish used?
I mean, with an approximate 6 degrees I get two satellites which on the 80cm dish I could only get by considerably separating the 2 LNB's to get 13E and 28.2. Do you think with a 3 degrees separation from the center LNB on 13E would I be likely to get 19.2E also?

For the spacing of LNBs (in inches or cm) you can use the formula:
distance = fG x ( (dA x PI) / 180), with [focal distance = fG, Azimuth difference = dA]
Or easier: distance = fG x dA x 0,01745
(see Multifeed installation and exact calculation of LNB position )

For London 51.4N, 0.3W, dA(13 and 19,2E) = 7,55 degrees (and elevation difference = 1,47 degrees)
For effective focal distance (from LNB to G-spot) you could calculate with the program DishChar (see Antenna's focal point - "le point G" ); but more easy is the rule of thumb for a offset dish that you measure the distance between front of LNB-holder and dish-surface at 40% of the dish-height (40% from bottom of dish, so 60% from top of dish), and use that value as the effective focal distance.

Now you can calculate the needed distance between the two LNBs (or the distance between the two necks of a monoblock LNB .
A few mm's off would not be a problem.

Monoblock LNBs are usually characterised as X-degree spacing for Y-diameter dish, but only for specific regions on earth and only for dishes with standard f/D-ratio!
So the distance calculation gives you much more exact information, and you should ask/measure the distance centre to centre of the "necks" of the wanted monoblock LNB.
In your case you could probably use LNBs with 23mm necks instead of 40 mm necks. But be carefull, some of those LNBs are extremely sensitive to rain! You have to pick them wisely.


BTW: The holder of the two LNBs should be at an angle of exactly 11 degrees to the horizontal in London 51.4N, 0.3W; the LNB for 13E lower than the 19E, as to adjust to the difference in elevation.

BTW2: I don't know if there are monoblocks (or 23mm neck LNBs) that are adjusted for dishes like yours, which are wider than high. If not, then you lose effective dish surface for reception! For a normal monoblock you would need a normal offset dish, which is higher than wide. I agree with @davemurgtroyd there.
Are you allowed to have a replacement dish with the same surface area, but another form? (And probably with a bigger effective focal distance, which would maybe make it easier to receive 13 and 19E with separate LNBs? ;))

greetz,
A33

 

[Copecchia]

Thanks for the info a33, I have been advised that I could only reinstall the exact same dish I had previously on the wall.
I did this confident that I was going to lock at least on 13E on his own because of this very post as started originally and then I adventured to see if I could get 19.2 aswel but instead I got 28.2
What I will probably try to do is to modify the collar of the centered LNB ( The typical collar for an MK4 Zone 1 Dish as you can see in the pic) in order to remove the side bit where the tightening screw is located so that I can get 19.2 as close to 13E as possible as at the moment those 12mm the screw compartment is taking pushes the LNB far enough to go offset.

Alternatively I could try to adjust the arm insertion of an MK2/3 type as these have the tightening screw at the bottom instead of on its side.

 

[davemurgtroyd]

You are supposed to be allowed upto a 1 Metre dish, without applying for planning permission, in most cases, and the landlord might not have the right to enforce such a small dish.
You might want to check with your local Citizens Advice, to see if you are allowed to put up a larger dish, without the landlord stopping you, although it might be best just to show him some pictures, of a few dishes, and see which he might allow, just explain that the 45cm is too small, for what you need.

That is only in regard to planning permission and does not overrule other legal obligations to your landlord - a very grey area = in the Europen court of justice there have been rulings both ways for and against landlords depending on individual circumstances so forget the Citizens Advice Bureau.

 

[Captain Jack]

You could always motorise the mini dish! May sound silly but it works.

 

[Copecchia]

You could always motorise the mini dish! May sound silly but it works.

I thought about that but even this would have been noted as a change to the previous original mini-dish since the motor would need a stronger and bigger bracket (like the one I had to remove along the 80cm Dish)
This is what the planning officer told me already. The Landlord limited himself to refer me to the planning office but he has made no complaint for the mini dish that was here before the bigger one.
Story is that Landlord did not even know anything about the bigger Dish until a resident reported this.

 

[Captain Jack]

Well, a resident has no say whatsoever here - 80cm is well below the allowed maximum without planning. Did you explain to the landlord these rules? If he him/herself has no issue with the dish then noone will be able to take it down.

Unless it's leasehold (flats and such) and the leaseholder may have their own set of restrictions.

 

[Copecchia]

Well, a resident has no say whatsoever here - 80cm is well below the allowed maximum without planning. Did you explain to the landlord these rules? If he him/herself has no issue with the dish then noone will be able to take it down.

Unless it's leasehold (flats and such) and the leaseholder may have their own set of restrictions.

It's about the conservation area rules, no dishes are allowed at all but as the planning officer said, the previous smaller one was here for very long time and after 4 years not being reported this automatically becomes immune, so fortunately this comes in my favor and happily the smaller dish allows me at least to lock on 13E without issues. If I knew this since the beginning I would have avoided call that cowboy that installed me the 80cm Dish just to get some bucks in his pockets where instead I did tell him I would have preferred to have a Zone 2 Dish as these look quiet similar to the Zone 1 and blend in with the rest of the Dishes in the street which are mostly Zone 1 Dishes.

 

[Captain Jack]

Hm... The issue with Zone1 dish is that it's rather small and beamwidth, rather large. What I would try is get two slim LNBs (those with narrow necks) and put them as close as you can to each other. You might be OK there.

They are not the best LNBs and suffer a lot from rain fade but you can put an empty Coke bottle over them with cutouts for the LNBs to make a cover for that.

 

[Copecchia]

Hm... The issue with Zone1 dish is that it's rather small and beamwidth, rather large. What I would try is get two slim LNBs (those with narrow necks) and put them as close as you can to each other. You might be OK there.

They are not the best LNBs and suffer a lot from rain fade but you can put an empty Coke bottle over them with cutouts for the LNBs to make a cover for that.

Yes but the main issue is to find a collar for that Dish which would allow that spacing regardless of the size of LNB.
I am pretty sure that if the current collar did not have those 12mm wasted by the screw compartment I would have probably already locked on 19.2 also but because of this I had to move further until I locked on 28.2. I guess I could have come across 23.5 but I was pointing with the Decoder switched on a channel on 19.2 and I locked on a channel but when zapping about with the remote I realized that although there was signal and quality displayed there was no image. Basically I realized I was on 28.2 when I started to zap through UK channels. I may one of these days just test again if I can lock on 23.5 as I am sure I would get more suitable channels than those on 28.2.