I'm so lost.. Dish size, lnb type, location & signal: Madeira

delicacy1

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That's reassuring. I'm facing a strange issue on that site. sometimes, i see myself in the beam & i will only get the EIRP level in the reception details & no dish size proposal, why's that ?

Satbeams simply publishes the data provided by the satellite operator / manufacturer. While footprints are getting more and more accurate, it's still a best guess estimate.
 

Captain Jack

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Not sure but anything below 40 dBW will be difficult with a dish smaller than 1.8m
 

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That's bloody crazy Dave, & i thought satbeams.com infos were based on scientific calculations )) So many elements can interfer with receptivity.
But quality lnb's & dish will hopefully offer me the best chances.
What you need to realise is that whatever the beam footprints say sometimes things are different. Thats part of the joy of the hobby - disproving whatever the beams say should be possible.

Badr 4 was long officially reported to have an "MBC beam" for the 11919 MBC services. Theoretically it was aimed at the Mediterranean. We soon proved this beam was complete a complete fabrication. Complete bollox in fact as I could receive it near Edinburgh with am 80 cm dish.

Eutelsat 25A at 25E - I managed to pick up one tp for a few weeks even though I was 1000 miles out of footprint for it!

Start with Hotbird & take it from there. You should get decent reception of 13E in Madeira.
 
A

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It's really not about the forum members being unwilling to give you answers.
It's really about that this can be complicated stuff to get your head around, and there is a learning curve to get this in place.
A sat antenna is not another stick in the air - there's some basic theory that you need to appreciate to be able to do what you want.
If you don't find that appealing, hire a professional sat installer.
But for your benefit (and in the spirit of the forum), here's:

--- A quick intro to satellite reception ---

Sat TV is broadcast from geo-stationary sattelites.
They are situated along the path of one specific orbit aruond the globe roughly 22.000 miles above the equator.

See wikipedia.org for more info on geostationary orbits if this is not clear.

The satellites are spaced suitably along this orbital path in regular intervals so they don't interfere with one another.
Each satellite appear to be stationary in the sky at one single point.
The antenna used to receive the signal must be "pointed" at that single specific point.
This is why all Sky dishes are point to the exact same spot in the sky.

As you are on the surface of the earth, you can only see the bit that is "on your side of the planet".
This translates to a theoretical 140 degree view.
In other words, you can't see the US sats, or the Chinese ones, as they are on the other side of the planet. Literally.

But because the signals are incredibly weak (coming from 22.000 miles away), you need some sort of amplifier to receive them.
For satellite antennas, the actual receiving antenna is the LNB, and the amplifier is the parabolic reflector.
The LNB *has* to be in the focal point of the parabolic reflector, otherwise the parabolic reflector has no effect.

See wikipedia.org on parabolic reflectors if this is not clear.

For strong signals, most residential sat tv can get away with a 60 cm dish.
The weaker the signal, the more amplification you need, the larger the reflector.
Some satellites limit the beam to avoid rights issues for transmission of tv.
A French operator sending tv to French subscribers may require the satellite to mechanically narrow the beam to make the signal very weak outside France.
Same thing happens to Freesat / Sky for the signal outside the UK.
This is why we foreigners have monster dishes to receive UK tv.

I'm sure there are beam-shaping tutorials out there somewhere on the net.

To receive signals from more than one satellite, you ideally need multiple antenna systems, pointing at each of the satellites you wish to receive.
That's a lot of antennas.
Instead, a good compromise is one antenna system that can be rotated along the same axis as the geo-stationary orbit, allowing the antenna to be "pointed" selectively at each sat along the path.
The downside of this is the time required to physically move the antenna system.

An alternative is to use a multi-focus dish.
This support multiple LNBs, so that many different sat positions (e.g. up to 4 or 8) can be received.
As the LNBs are fixed, switching between them are almost instantaneously.
The trick of multi-focus dishes is to focus the amplification of the reflector in a horizontal lines, instead of a point.
This allows the LNB to be positioned along this horizontal line, so that multiple satellite positions can be received.
But the trick also means that a 90cm multi-focus does not focus as well as a 90cm single focus.
So the benefit of instant switching comes at the price of less amplification.

I'm sure there are more multi-focus tutorials out there.

You can even wrangle multiple LNBs onto a single-focus dish, such as the Gibertinis.
Any parabolic reflector still provide some amplification even if the LNB is out of focus.
The problem is that the focal point has turned into a diffuse focal cloud.
Only strong signals can come through, especially the further you move a side-mounted LNB away from the focus of the antenna system.
So a single Gibertini will NOT provide you with a wide view of the Geo-stationary arc.

--- end of Quick intro ---


Recommendation:
  • If you want it for free you have to do it yourself. This is not something to blag on a sunday afternoon - this requires new skills and experimentation to get right.
  • As you clearly have no clue of what you would like to receive, you should take this as a journey, not as a wham-bam-thank-you-mam installation. Start simple, you can always expand.
  • Start with a cheap multi-focus dish, and try aligning it for 13E, 19.2E, 26E. This is likely to give you thousands and thousands of channels, in English, German, French, Italian, Arabic, Farsi and many other languages
  • If you want full British tv, forget it on normal sized antenna reflectors. You will need 4m+ sizes. Cheaper to go IPTV.
  • Realistically, you coud get very far with a multifocus dish such as a T-90 w. 8 LNBs + a 8-1 DiSEqC switch. Later you can add a single, large, motorised dish (say, a 150cm), if you really want to play around.

If this all still leaves you quizzed, consider picking up playing chess.
Will be a lot easier to get started on, and will require less cash.
 

delicacy1

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I decided to stay on the Gibertinni with 8lnb's or 4lnb's depending on the best quantity & quality of channels i can get from the found beams in my area.
But i'm having a hard time locating the sattelite/beam's channels on top of my list at flysat.com

2cr0bjd.jpg



85°W
XM 5
CONUS (beam) (Usa)
65cm dish

50°W
Intelsat 29E
Transatlantic (beam) (Usa / Europe...)
100cm dish

47°W
NSS 806
Hemi (beam) (Entire America Incl Brazil & Europe)
150cm dish

40°W
SES 6
EastAtlantic (beam)
60cm dish

30°W
Hispasat 30W-4
EuropeD (beam)
80cm dish

20°W
NSS7
NEZone (beam)
130cm dish

3°E
Eutelsat 3B
Europe (beam)
110cm dish

7°E
Eutelsat 7B
EuropeA (beam)
75cm dish

10°E
Eutelsat 10A
Global (beam)
Europe (beam)
170cm dish

13°E
Eutelsat Hot Bird 13E
Wide (beam)
110cm dish

16°E
Eutelsat 16A
EuropeA (beam)
70cm dish

19°EE
-Astra 1N
PE (beam)
-Astra 1L
1LFSS (beam)
-Astra 1KR
1KR (beam)
120cm dish

20°E
Arabsat 5C
Extended (beam)
150cm dish

23°E
Astra 3B
PanEuopean (beam)
110cm dish

28°E
Astra 2G & Astra 2F
Europe (Beams)
110cm dish

31°E
Arabsat 5A
MEA (beam)
150cm dish

36°E
Eutelsat 36B
Eurasua (beam)
110cm dish
 

Captain Jack

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Excellent info @st1. I fear it might have been wasted on this particular thread, though...
 

jeallen01

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Somewhere in England (possibly?)!
FWIW, and unless this has been mentioned before, :
- the larger the dish is, the narrower is the beam width that produces decent signal levels
- thus most single focus dishes (unless very small and in strong signal areas) don't work at all well with multiple LNBs intended to receive signals from satellites spread over an arc of more than about 12 degrees of arc (and even that is "pushing your luck" in many instances).
 

delicacy1

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Thanks for your precise informations jeallen. Now i understand why at the gibertinni's producer's page the only offered accessories are limited to 4 lnb's only holders.

The sad part is that if i choose the big bisat solution, i'm limited to 5 sats.

& st1 mentions the possibility to get lots of channels on he 26°E position with a ~90cm multifeed oriented antenna when that position requires at minimum 120cm dishes..
same for 19°E..

So what's wrong, what's right ?

I also tried to find european channels on the arabsat5a online unsuccessfully, so i ended up assuming that if the sat's mea beam covers a whole range of europe & more,
that it's only to distribute arabic channels & not european ones.

if this is right:

"Start with a cheap multi-focus dish, and try aligning it for 13E, 19.2E, 26E. This is likely to give you thousands and thousands of channels"

I might go for it & avoid the motorized solution. But i'd certainly prefer the big bisat over the t-90 for it's non corrosive quality & better shape.


FWIW, and unless this has been mentioned before, :
- the larger the dish is, the narrower is the beam width that produces decent signal levels
- thus most single focus dishes (unless very small and in strong signal areas) don't work at all well with multiple LNBs intended to receive signals from satellites spread over an arc of more than about 12 degrees of arc (and even that is "pushing your luck" in many instances).
 
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davemurgtroyd

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I decided to stay on the Gibertinni with 8lnb's or 4lnb's depending on the best quantity & quality of channels i can get from the found beams in my area.
But i'm having a hard time locating the sattelite/beam's channels on top of my list at flysat.com

2cr0bjd.jpg



85°W
XM 5
CONUS (beam) (Usa)
65cm dish

50°W
Intelsat 29E
Transatlantic (beam) (Usa / Europe...)
100cm dish

47°W
NSS 806
Hemi (beam) (Entire America Incl Brazil & Europe)
150cm dish

40°W
SES 6
EastAtlantic (beam)
60cm dish

30°W
Hispasat 30W-4
EuropeD (beam)
80cm dish

20°W
NSS7
NEZone (beam)
130cm dish

3°E
Eutelsat 3B
Europe (beam)
110cm dish

7°E
Eutelsat 7B
EuropeA (beam)
75cm dish

10°E
Eutelsat 10A
Global (beam)
Europe (beam)
170cm dish

13°E
Eutelsat Hot Bird 13E
Wide (beam)
110cm dish

16°E
Eutelsat 16A
EuropeA (beam)
70cm dish

19°EE
-Astra 1N
PE (beam)
-Astra 1L
1LFSS (beam)
-Astra 1KR
1KR (beam)
120cm dish

20°E
Arabsat 5C
Extended (beam)
150cm dish

23°E
Astra 3B
PanEuopean (beam)
110cm dish

28°E
Astra 2G & Astra 2F
Europe (Beams)
110cm dish

31°E
Arabsat 5A
MEA (beam)
150cm dish

36°E
Eutelsat 36B
Eurasua (beam)
110cm dish
All those dish sizes are for a single lnb at the focus of the dish and NOT for multiple lnbs. As stated in a post above any spread over 12 degrees separation is going to seriously weaken the signal received by offset lnbs and double or treble the dish size required if it works at all.

If you really are serious about this then either a motorised dish of 1.5m or 1.8m OR the same size dish with2 or 3 lnbs maximum is your best starting point.

You seem unable to grasp the fact that multiple offset lnbs on a standard dish is going to have serious problems receiving sufficient signal.

Are there any people local to you with satellite dishes - if so ask them what satellites they can receive? You really do seem that you want to run a marathon before you can even walk.
 

delicacy1

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"You really do seem that you want to run a marathon before you can even walk"

Buying such material is not like playing loto, & i don't want to try any "luck", considering each of you are proposing different approaches.
So i decided to go for a 1.8 motorized dish.
I hope i can have it set on or near the roof, cause i've seen many of those on the ground.
I'll contact a local sellеr to have it set when needed.
 
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Interesting.

What sort of motor do you propose to use with a dish that size?
 

delicacy1

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I don't know what's available & different methods. But i guess each seller has his fetish option & stock for a limited type.
Is there any motor type more profitable than others Lazarus ? Suggestion ?

Interesting.

What sort of motor do you propose to use with a dish that size?
 

moonbase

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I don't know what's available & different methods. But i guess each seller has his fetish option & stock for a limited type.
Is there any motor type more profitable than others Lazarus ? Suggestion ?


@delicacy1

It might be best to check what type of 1.8m dish you can buy then see if there is an off the shelf polar mount for it. If there is a polar mount that is matched to the dish then you would use a linear actuator as a motor to pivot the dish on the polar mount.

If you do go for a linear actuator then the best makes are Venture and Von Weiss. Be careful not to buy a cheap chinese clone such as Super Power Jack.

Rgds
 

Captain Jack

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Is this anti corrosion & their mounts ?
laminas.com.pl/page_eng/as1800_eng.html

upload_2017-4-3_14-17-9.png

upload_2017-4-3_14-17-34.png

Not sure how it can be made any clearer on their site...
 

delicacy1

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If i use this dish:
laminas.com.pl/page_eng/as1800_eng.html

wich actuator in the lists below would you advise me ?
vonweise.com/CatalogActuators.pdf
venturemfgco.com/search/linear actuator

@delicacy1

It might be best to check what type of 1.8m dish you can buy then see if there is an off the shelf polar mount for it. If there is a polar mount that is matched to the dish then you would use a linear actuator as a motor to pivot the dish on the polar mount.

If you do go for a linear actuator then the best makes are Venture and Von Weiss. Be careful not to buy a cheap chinese clone such as Super Power Jack.

Rgds
 
A

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Actuators seem to be a bit of a sore point. But I would use a heavy duty one of 18" or 24".

Choice is yours :)
 

Captain Jack

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Venture ball-screw type 24"... if I had to pick again. Von Weise are also good ... but er... just make sure you pick one that's compatible with a Vbox.
 

delicacy1

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Thanks to all of you, i have all necessary infos now :-bubbly
 
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