KA reception is a no go so far for me

[Vipersan]

From your ebay listing


19.7-20.2 Ghz
(Lo 21.20 Ghz)

Like C -Band, the final output will be an inversion, or the processing of the transport stream will be rejected at the demodulator stage.

No manual control of inversion in the menus of the F15 CH ..
I may well try again with the TBS card when I get home ..
Lower gain ..but more control over the scanned signal ..and transport stream ..
I appreciate any suggestions you want to add ..
rgds
VS

 

[Channel Hopper]

I doubt there would be, but setting the LO to the correct frequency allows the demodulator to work on the data without non-integer values getting in the way.

 

[Vipersan]

I doubt there would be, but setting the LO to the correct frequency allows the demodulator to work on the data without non-integer values getting in the way.

...Just as an extra bit of info ..
The only stb I can ever remember allowing spectrum inversion ...and only with 3rd party software was the Nokia 9600 (and presumably 9500) with Uli Hermans software

:-worship:-worship

 

[Vipersan]

...So anyone want to hazzard a guess as to what this is I'm looking at ..
Won't lock anything on the F15
Can't see anything on the TS stream ...but is located at freq 20000 RHC

Its solid but nothing actually on it that the TBS card can decipher..
I'm assuming this can't be saorsat simply because its RHC not LHC
the LO was set to 21.200 and scan range 19.720 - 21.200 spectrum inverted..
rgds
VS

 

[Vipersan]

..And here are 2 full scans in RHC(V red) and LHC(H blue) ...grafted together for comparison ..
Notice in both polarities the 4 main humps exist and match ...thus proving that they are using neither left nor right circular ..but indeed both polarities..
The peak I was interested in and posted previously (The first hump in red ) is ONLY using RHC and thus _is_ polarised
This is what makes it interesting ..
The 4 unpolarised humps are imo data transponders ...but the thinner RHC only ...is possibly where the testcard _should_ have been ...and is video capable ..

I'm assuming a similar hump to the thin red one would be present in LHC IF I was within the intended footprint area of Saorsat
Any takers ??
rgds
VS

 

[Vipersan]

Here is a crazyscan of AOL in ka band LHC at what I believe is 33 west
moved the alcoa to 34 west ..a known c band position on the vbox ..and walked it east about 10 clicks ..

rgds
VS

 

[Vipersan]

Well ..fwiw I've located at least a dozen ka transponders across the arc ..
Sadly nothing listed anywhere to speak of to positively identify whats what ..
..and worse ..all data ..or just carrier..the only one carrying video is saorsat ..and sadly I can't even get a sniff of that one ..even though its practically on my doorstep.

Here's an odd one though ..
perhaps someone can identify this solitary transponder ...producing signal in both RHC and LHC..but only in LHC can I identify any kind of modulation - QPSK..
No idea which bird is spewing this out ...and it looks to be its only (active) ka transponder
location roughly 40 East

definately about 20 clicks East of Paksat at 38 East..
any ideas ?
..all very secretive as to which birds carry ka payloads..

rgds
VS

 

[petediscrete]

Just an update from the Emerald Isle.We had a feature on the National Radio Broadcaster RTE Radio 1 today on this very subject.They were crowing on about our new DTT service and how brilliant the new service would be (what a joke). They said that for the few people who couldn't receive DTT there would be a satellite broadcast alternative to it.The chap speaking on the subject would not go into, as he said, technical details but when asked if the current Sky minidish would suffice pointed at 28 degrees he took great delight in saying it wouldnt.When pressed on why the set top box was so expensive v the UK equivalent he proceeded to bullshit on about the build quality and the fact that it would be forever compatible with the ever changing service coming on stream.Oh and by the way he took great delight in telling us that owing to its extremely narrow beam it allowed them to broadcast programmes that were previously not permitted owing to rights issues.

A sign of whats to come folks I fear.

 

[Vipersan]

Thanks Pete for confirmation of what I believe I have proved first hand ..
Unless you live within the immediate radius of the 'spot' as its now called instead of footprint of Saorsat ...don't rush out and buy a ka band lnb ...look for reports of reception in the area in which you live.
I'm talking about mainland UK here ..
I am getting very favourable reception of various data channels from various points on the arc ..but not even the tiniest hint of anything from saorsat.
I conclude from this that the spot is 'tight' ...and falloff of reception is extremely rapid.
For example a chap might get 75% signal and good reception on 1m dish ...but 30 - 50 miles Eastward it would require a 2m dish ..and 10 miles further 3m wouldn't be enough..
Sadly there's nothing else up there atm to justify the expense of the lnb which still aren't cheap yet..
..but in my case ...I just had to sate my curiosity and prove it to myself..
Another thing to note ..
A big dish is fine for reception of ka from about 35 degrees + or - the apex point of you visible arc ..but lower than this on the horizon ..you will probably experience ..as I did...glitches /spikes that appear as valid peaks ...but disappear almost imediately ..
In other words ka reception is very susceptible to noise at low elevations ...and the bigger the dish ..the worse this is .

Tomorrow I shall refit the Cband lnb ...and the ka will be put away ..until there's a reason to dig it out again.
cest la vie

 

[Channel Hopper]

Thanks Pete for confirmation of what I believe I have proved first hand ..
Unless you live within the immediate radius of the 'spot' as its now called instead of footprint of Saorsat ...don't rush out and buy a ka band lnb ...look for reports of reception in the area in which you live.

For the financial outlay, it is worth doing if you have time and patience. I have an inking the beams you have discovered are the satellite beacons in which case there wouldn't be any data, which would not be decypherable by a domestic receiver. The info coming down would almost certainly be a satellite identifyer and performance feedback from the onboard equipment, allowing the ground station to uplink corrections (most importantly, altitude parameters - and therefore orbital slot station keeping - positioning in general, dish alignment for footprint keeping and keeping the satellite distanced from others in the same area)

A big dish is fine for reception of ka from about 35 degrees + or - the apex point of you visible arc ..but lower than this on the horizon ..you will probably experience ..as I did...glitches /spikes that appear as valid peaks ...but disappear almost imediately ..
In other words ka reception is very susceptible to noise at low elevations ...and the bigger the dish ..the worse this is .

I have a feeling there may be something else that is affecting your system for this to occur, a faulty connection, or possibly the LNB itself. I cannot see anything at Ka band frequencies that would affect incoming signals in this way, terrestrial or spectrum noise off the horizonta plane.

 

[Vipersan]

For the financial outlay, it is worth doing if you have time and patience. I have an inking the beams you have discovered are the satellite beacons in which case there wouldn't be any data, which would not be decypherable by a domestic receiver. The info coming down would almost certainly be a satellite identifyer and performance feedback from the onboard equipment, allowing the ground station to uplink corrections (most importantly, altitude parameters - and therefore orbital slot station keeping - positioning in general, dish alignment for footprint keeping and keeping the satellite distanced from others in the same area)




I have a feeling there may be something else that is affecting your system for this to occur, a faulty connection, or possibly the LNB itself. I cannot see anything at Ka band frequencies that would affect incoming signals in this way, terrestrial or spectrum noise off the horizonta plane.

For the most part I agree with you CH ..
The AOL transponders I found at approx 33 West ...definately carried TS streams of private data ..
These I suspect are genuine internet data downlinks ..
Apart from that ..I think you have it pretty well covered ..
As to the glitches ..they appear at random and with the dish stationary ..
Possible localised electrical noise spikes ?
Low on the horizon ..ie ..below 40 degrees ...could possibly explained by this ..
cheers
VS

 

[Channel Hopper]

As to the glitches ..they appear at random and with the dish stationary ..
Possible localised electrical noise spikes ?
Low on the horizon ..ie ..below 40 degrees ...could possibly explained by this ..
cheers
VS

An extreme form of carrier modulation ?

 

[Vipersan]

Here's an odd one though ..
perhaps someone can identify this solitary transponder ...producing signal in both RHC and LHC..but only in LHC can I identify any kind of modulation - QPSK..
No idea which bird is spewing this out ...and it looks to be its only (active) ka transponder
location roughly 40 East

definately about 20 clicks East of Paksat at 38 East..
any ideas ?
..all very secretive as to which birds carry ka payloads..

rgds
VS

..fwiw I'm fairly sure I've discovered the source of this one anyway
It turns out that Nigcomsat 1R currently parked at 42.5 East ..and supposedly inert atm ..carries 8 ka transponders ..
it could well be in test phase ...and thats what I saw last night.

111219
16:41

NigComSat 1R Long March 3B Xichang 42.5°E 8 Ka tps and 14 Ku tps and 4 C tps and 2 L tps


rgds
VS

to prove 'ish the above statement ...I temporarily popped in a ku lnb ....and located Turksat ..
logged its position into the vbox for reference ..swapped the lnb back to the ka circular ..and scanned LHC

the result is ..the TBS scan attached ..
Certainly looks like it peaks at this location 42 East ...errr roughly..
..other possibilities are Galaxy27 or Eutelsat W2M ...the latter is undergoing tests currently ..but seems a long way out ...but then I can't guarantee accurate lnb placement of the ka lnb ..for cenre focus ...it could be secondary lobe reception even..
..also not sure what ka payloads are on these 2 birds ..if any..
ka info is scarce at best

 

[Vipersan]

Before I leave Ka for the time being ...I thought I'd show you just how noisy it is at 33 West
These are taken just in LHCP ...
A lot of carrier activity ..and quite a lot of data activity..
and thats just one polarity ..though most LHCP is duplicated in RHCP on other birds ...but not on this one.
I'll also take a look at RHCP ..and post up any differences ..
Keep in mind that the frequencies are not accurate ..as Crazyscan doesn't 'lend' itself to ka ranges as yet..
rgds
VS

 

[zg3409]

Hi Viperscan,

I have read all your posts on this thread. It may or may not be possible to get the signal in Manchester. From what I have read you may be following the wrong procedure to get a fix. Even if you get a signal, in time it may dissapear if the same frequency is used by the East Scotland spot.

Firstly dish size is a bit of a misnomer. A smaller dish MAY, I emphasise may work better, in terms of alignment etc. A very large dish is very, very directional at KA. (Think of pointing a 3M dish!) Ignoring actually getting a TV signal first, if you have a fast acting spectrum analyser you should be able to align even using a camping size dish to 9 East. What seems to be recommended is to use an ordinary KU univeral LNB first and align it to pick up the normal TV channels at 9 East. See lyngsat for normal 9 East channels broadcasting from 11-12Ghz.

Once you have the dish aligned correctly then swap out the LNB.

The local oswcillator you mentioned near the very start is TOTALLY wrong, so remove that from your settings. 99% of receivers do not have an option for a 21.2Ghz LNB, so what you need to do is use the settings of a normal LNB, and set up a custom transponder of 10,765 Vertical.

KA-SAT @ 9E 20.185GHz, Left Circular Polarisation, DVB-S2 QPSK, SR 25000 with 1/2 FEC .
Any DVB-S2 HD satellite receiver can in theory be used to receive Saorsat as the Ka band LNBF converts to a regular IF in the 950MHz to 2100MHz band. If the receiver does not have a setting for the Ka band LNBF Lo, then a "fake" frequency 10.765 vertical rather than the real 20.185 may be entered when using the Inverto LNB with local oscillator of 21.2.

HAVING LOOKED AT THE ATTACHMENTS YOU ATTACHED ONE OF THE IMAGES LOOKS LIKE THE CORRECT TRANSPONDER !!!!!!!

It is the red line on 40796d1329244105-peak-scan-rhc-lhc.jpg.att
http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/attachments/forum101/40796d1329244105-peak-scan-rhc-lhc.jpg.att

SEE MY ATTACHMENT BELOW

So it's one skinny transponder on the left (Saorsat) and 4 fat transponders (Internet only)

I have posted up photos of what the tranponder looks like, expected coverage etc on another board (google search Saorsat and spectrum etc & then page 142)

You must use VERTICAL only, ignore all horizontal.

I would recommend ignoring all the 20Ghz values above and just use the 10Ghz values and a univeral LNB setting. It does work!!

If you cannot get an actual TV signal with the above info then all is not lost. There are other spots transmitted towards East Scotland and France using the same frequencies. There are also other spots (different polarisation, different frequency) that should be REALLY strong in Manchester. You should be able to use a camping (40cm) dish to pick these up. Every other spot is all internet, no TV, so no point trying to scan for TV on them. However they could be very useful for aligning the dish.

Search for "tooway dish pointer" and see what spot is recommended for your location. This "colour" determines polarisation and frequency for the strongest signal at your location. This should confirm you have dish pointed perfectly, let me know what colour and I can tell you what frequency to set.

The spectrum looks good. Make sure your box is HD and LNB setting is universal. Let us know!!!!

Please ask any qns if confused

 

[zg3409]

>Im using LO setting 18750

WRONG use 21.2 or universal LNB, preferably univeral

>22khz off
Correct, makes no difference anyway

>LHC (H)
No LHCP = Vertical =14V

>Saorsat :-TP 20185
>SR 25000

Yes or 10.765 vertical if universal LNB is selected earlier. This should help!

 

[zg3409]

>..And here are 2 full scans in RHC(V red)

NO. WRONG WAY AROUND!!! V=LHCP

>and LHC(H blue) ...grafted together for comparison ..

No, H-RHCP, so the RED ONE IS SAORSAT LHCP

From your attachment

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/attachments/forum101/40796d1329244105-peak-scan-rhc-lhc.jpg.att

The RED top left IS SAORSAT. Compare to my attachment at the end.

>Notice in both polarities the 4 main humps exist and match ...thus proving that they are using neither left nor right circular ..but indeed both >polarities..

They don't match. These are DIFFERENT transponders. There are 4 internet and one TV on RED (The TV is the skinny one on the left)
On the blue you have 4 internet only.

I THINK THE RED ONE IS ACTUALLY SAORSAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saorsat spectrum is one skinny one, to the left, and 4 fat ones to the right.

I HAVE ATTACHED MY SPECTRUM OF SAORSAT FROM A RECEIVER IN DUBLIN

So I think you have already found Saorsat, you just need the correct LNB local oscillator, polarity and frequency.

Another technique is to put on a normal LNB, find normal TV stations at 9E on 11-12Ghz band, then swap the LNB for the 20Ghz version,

All internet transponders are FAT, the TV's are Skinny.

SEE THUMBNAIL. M2=Saorsat M1 etc are internet

 

[Channel Hopper]

>Im using LO setting 18750

WRONG use 20.2 or universal LNB, preferably univeral

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/...-reception-no-go-so-far-me-2.html#post1023586

 

[zg3409]

Also Viperscan the frequencies shown in the bottom of your spectrum are wrong, probably due to the wrong LNB local oscillator. This LNB gives 19.7Ghz to 20.2Ghz. It's LO is 21.2 (UPDATE IT JUST LOOKS INVERTED, with correct LO)

So at the intermediate frequency the signal will appear 1000 -1500Mhz. If you do an entire blind scan, with universal LNB settings you could pick up Saorsat at 9.75+1.015=10.765 and 10.6+1.015=11.615 both vertical as the LNB ignores the tone for high band, it simply re-scans low band. If you scan the entire universal LNB frequencies and both polarities you will get all "colour" beams, twice meaning 4 bands, then the same 4 again.

I hope you get something, however my mapping puts manchester in East Scotland beam, hopefully they are not broadcasting on 20.185 LHCP on this spot.

 

[Vipersan]

Hi zg3409
Thanks for all the extra info you supplied ..
I've tried both with the lo frequency as supplied on the lnb itself ..
..and using standard unversal settings ..
And yes I agree the skinny peak on V or RHCP (red) is the only one I even considered video capable ..
The F15 recognises there is something it recognises ..and attempts to pull something from that frequency ...both on a fixed frequency input ..and blind scan pass ..
Strong enogh to light the F15s DB scale green ..instead of orange yellow or red ...
(red is usually data ..and can be 14 db but remains red ..as there is nothing in the stream the F15 recognises...not true of this skinny RHCP peak)
...but sadly after iterrogating the signal ...nothing is actually locked in ..channelwise..
The same is true on the TBS card ...which _should_ display the modulated content of the carrier frequency ...but although locks ...nothing on board in the TS stream that the TBS card can identify ..
So you may be right ..in that I cannot seperate overlapping spots ..
..and maybe ..a smaller dish might be preferable...
Though ..reports suggest I'm in the wrong postion geographically ..to see Saorsat..on any size dish..
I did contemplate ..mounting the ka lnb permanently on the Triax TD110 ..as close to focus as possible ..as an offset lnb..?
Worthwhile ..?
..well maybe ...as I can't leave it at the focus on my PF..

Thoughts and comments welcome..as usual..
..all new territory for me
;)
VS