Astra 2F: Western Europe Discussion

[cazhh]

Didn't 2D use to do a bit of a shift in the autumn/spring too?

It could be a reaction to the position of the sun for sure. But there is also that other rumour ...

What is at least noteworthy is that the signal changes usually happen around the same time(s) and are quite steady.

I do diffs between the days as well (ie snr day 2 - snr day 1) and pretty often is see something like this:



it might be coincidence as there is usually a lot of noise in those graphs, but who knows. When i have some more time i plan to normalize those graphs a bit better.

 

[mickwig]

It could be a reaction to the position of the sun for sure. But there is also that other rumour ...

What is at least noteworthy is that the signal changes usually happen around the same time(s) and are quite steady.

I do diffs between the days as well (ie snr day 2 - snr day 1) and pretty often is see something like this:



it might be coincidence as there is usually a lot of noise in those graphs, but who knows. When i have some more time i plan to normalize those graphs a bit better.

Which colour is which frequency?

 

[cazhh]

Which colour is which frequency?

It's all 10964. Just different days.

 

[mickwig]

It's all 10964. Just different days.

Thanks caz

 

[TonyWhalley]

Hi Tony, without wanting to dampen your enthusiasm I must tell you, that the sudden spike in signal might only be partly due to your new equipment/skew settings. I live about 100 km due north (A9) of you and I have benn chasing the UK spot beam since May with more or less success. Meaning, I had a 180 cm installed in May since my 120 Kathrein PF would pick up 2F UKspot only very badly. From May to August I tested and it wasn't enough to actually have a stable signla to watch TV (the wife!!).

Since then I upgraded to 240 cm and the gain of signal strength was about 30%. However - about 2 weeks ago suddenly CH4 HD was the strongest TP whereas before it was the weakest and since about 3 to 4 days ALL channels are incredibly strong. I had about 55% SQ at the maximum and down to 10-15% at the minimum. Now we are up to 70% max and 30% min. I hope it will last, but I somehow doubt it. Something has changed either in preparation for 2E to arrive or maybe the signal was boosted because of oncoming bad wheather in the UK in order to keep little dishes working despite the thick clound. I don't know.

Regards - Mick

You could be right, but I have had the Gibertini 1.25 for about 6 months, so pretty clear about it's characteristics. The tuning specifically focused on Astra 2F has certainly improved things, as has the LNB and feedhorn.
Whereas over the last week, the signal dropped off dramatically as the evening came in, with teh skew adjusted it is much less rapid.

Of course, in 6 weeks time, I could be saying ****, need a bigger dish but time will tell when 2E becomes operational.

A larger dish is still under consideration, exactly how is your dish installed and setup? What make is the dish and where did it come from? On a building or on the ground? I am interested in the mechanics of supporting such a large dish considering that it probably has to go on my garage, and sit on a stand held down by about 8 flagstones!

 

[TonyWhalley]

I live about 100 km due north (A9) of you and I have benn chasing the UK spot beam since May with more or less success.

Nice choice of location!! How did you manage that!

I am not surpised at the larger dish, as I saw one report from someone with a 150 dish in Nuremberg, and they were picking up OK... but you are further N and E, which I think puts you the wrong side of the next dish size.
But like all things until we see 2E operational, all is guess work.

 

[Pietclock]

Reception has improved significantly during the last 2 days. Even a 100cm Gibertini is doing the job now...

 

[TonyWhalley]

If you connect your sky box directly to the ...horizontal low...output of your LNb ..and tune to ch5....,you can see how much through loss the multiswitch is causing.....

Yep, might do that, quicker than removing all 16 cables and sticking on the Kathrein

 

[hexah]

it might be coincidence as there is usually a lot of noise in those graphs, but who knows. When i have some more time i plan to normalize those graphs a bit better.

That is a useful graph.

I wouldn't worry about normalization, the raw data is enough to show the trend.

 

[mickwig]

Nice choice of location!! How did you manage that!

I am not surpised at the larger dish, as I saw one report from someone with a 150 dish in Nuremberg, and they were picking up OK... but you are further N and E, which I think puts you the wrong side of the next dish size.
But like all things until we see 2E operational, all is guess work.

I was born here, it's the misses that comes from the NW of England. We used to live there, but Maggie and Nigel saw to it, that I as a foreigner was not able to get a job after they killed of all the industry (I was working for Leyland engines).

Yes, I seemed to have picked the spot. The first null is only a few miles to the east. I commissioned a company that usually does head stations for hotel and cable providers. Your local satellite guy will be well out of his comfort zone with anything over 1 m. The firm monitore´d 2F for a while and reckoned, that 180 cm should do it. Since they are based about 50 km east of Pottenstein, I ordered a 180 cm with the option of upgrading, should there be a problem. My best move yet. After 4 months and 200 pages of signal protocol I knew, that there is no way of watching without interruption. So I thought, I am not going to put anything over 240 cm in the garden (half of the town thinks I'm nuts anyway) and decided to to it. If that won't work, then that will be it for me.

The dish is a 240 Raven (formerly Andrews) offset. It cannot be mounted on a wall or roof since it weighs just under 200 kg incl. the mount. Because I had planned for 180 cm I made a concrete flag 100 x 100 cm, about 30 cm thick, with a 120 mm steel pipe mounted on top. But since the 240 cm is so heavy, I fixed two steel pipes from the mount onto the garage wall in order to make sure, that the top heavy dish does not keel over. It also stops the dish from oscillating in the wind. But according to the manual the mount shpuld be sunk into the ground at leat underneath the frost border (about 1m to 1.5m) in order to keep steady in storms etc. There is about a ton that pulls on the diah if the wind is strong.

Since you are neare to the main signal beam, you wont probably need a dish that big.

By the way, in the moment I have 795 SQ on CH4 HD - totally abnormal to what I have seen for the last 6 month.

 

[hexah]

A larger dish is still under consideration, exactly how is your dish installed and setup? What make is the dish and where did it come from? On a building or on the ground? I am interested in the mechanics of supporting such a large dish considering that it probably has to go on my garage, and sit on a stand held down by about 8 flagstones!

Bigger is always better.

It would be ironic to be stuck in a 'valley of the clueless'' these days.

It depends on what kind of roof you have on your garage. Don't forget to put down some foam or roofing felt to protect the roof from the non penetrating mount and flags. Or you may find leaks everywhere.

I would suggest changing all the bolts and nuts to grade A2 stainless steel as you will want to take it apart and move it at some stage.

Take care when moving big dishes up ladders and onto roofs, I have done it with heavy 2m dishes and it can be dangerous if you don't think it through first.

 

[Gary D]

this is what happened the last few days:



Also at the same time someone at the western border of the sidelobe reported a weaker signal. To me this looks like a beam move.

Caz, that last bit of your data for today looked a bit ominous with a downturn that seems different to the previous days. How is the signal looking now?

 

[hexah]

The dish is a 240 Raven (formerly Andrews) offset. It cannot be mounted on a wall or roof since it weighs just under 200 kg incl. the mount. Because I had planned for 180 cm I made a concrete flag 100 x 100 cm, about 30 cm thick, with a 120 mm steel pipe mounted on top. But since the 240 cm is so heavy, I fixed two steel pipes from the mount onto the garage wall in order to make sure, that the top heavy dish does not keel over. It also stops the dish from oscillating in the wind. But according to the manual the mount shpuld be sunk into the ground at leat underneath the frost border (about 1m to 1.5m) in order to keep steady in storms etc. There is about a ton that pulls on the diah if the wind is strong.

I have been at this dish lark for a while will be about 3 decades some time next year so I am not sure if I remember correctly but I think the concrete base is meant to have some reinforcement rebar, not a lot and in a cube shape.

You can find out about frost persistance and cold penetration by looking up the weather stats for your area, particularly the soil temperature at 30cm.

As you are in the cold winter half of Germany you might want to get a dish heating element from a satellite shop. That sticks on the back with tape. It does make a difference. If you are handy you can make one yourself. Take note of where the melt water will go as you can often find increased corrosion and frost damage on the concrete at those points. Roofing bitumen might help there but it is vile stuff (I have used it in the past). Some people have used trays or buckets and broken out the ice from time to time. Some have used pebbles but they are messy and may not work that well if you don't have a deep pile of them (some broadcasters and cable head ends do that). Others have used plastic fake grass carpet around the mount over the winter which keeps the snow and ice off and leave it off over summer to allow the rain water to evaporate. I know a Canadian who did that with carpet and it worked well but the plastic stuff would be more weather resistant.

Bit late now but a laminas 2700 might have been a more cost effective higher gain alterative.

 

[cazhh]

Caz, that last bit of your data for today looked a bit ominous with a downturn that seems different to the previous days. How is the signal looking now?

That is just a result of the bezier smoothing. It's still fine, but almost back to yesterdays level now.

 

[mickwig]

I have been at this dish lark for a while will be about 3 decades some time next year so I am not sure if I remember correctly but I think the concrete base is meant to have some reinforcement rebar, not a lot and in a cube shape.

You can find out about frost persistance and cold penetration by looking up the weather stats for your area, particularly the soil temperature at 30cm.

As you are in the cold winter half of Germany you might want to get a dish heating element from a satellite shop. That sticks on the back with tape. It does make a difference. If you are handy you can make one yourself. Take note of where the melt water will go as you can often find increased corrosion and frost damage on the concrete at those points. Roofing bitumen might help there but it is vile stuff (I have used it in the past). Some people have used trays or buckets and broken out the ice from time to time. Some have used pebbles but they are messy and may not work that well if you don't have a deep pile of them (some broadcasters and cable head ends do that). Others have used plastic fake grass carpet around the mount over the winter which keeps the snow and ice off and leave it off over summer to allow the rain water to evaporate. I know a Canadian who did that with carpet and it worked well but the plastic stuff would be more weather resistant.

Bit late now but a laminas 2700 might have been a more cost effective higher gain alterative.

Yeah, too late and too big. The concrete flag has reinforced steel mesh inside. However. the depth is too little so I will have to cover the foot of my mount with some kind of plastic in order to try to keep the water off the underside of the base, since when it freezes here (down to -30 C when it gets bad) I don't want the ice to lift the flag. Plastic fake grass with some stone flags to weigh them down is a rather good idea. As for the snow in the dish - fortunately the wheather usually come from the west and the dish is pointing easterly. I also have a brush with a VERY long handle which I needed for the PF dish on the roof.

 

[TonyWhalley]

Yep, might do that, quicker than removing all 16 cables and sticking on the Kathrein

Damn!
I get a 10% improvement on signal quality on bypassing the multiswitch. e.g CH5SD was 9.3dB now 10.4 dB without multiswitch.
Guess I will now try the Kathrein...... after I walk the dog!

 

[TonyWhalley]

Damn!
I get a 10% improvement on signal quality on bypassing the multiswitch. e.g CH5SD was 9.3dB now 10.4 dB without multiswitch.
Guess I will now try the Kathrein...... after I walk the dog!

Maybe the Kathrein is worth the money....... everything is up compared to the previous Chess/Spaun multiswitch, at a time when things are normally going down for me!

I guess I will sleep on it and check again tomorrow.

 

[Steve Steve]

Nice one "tony"..,,great result...eh..?.....don"t forget... I did say your signal was way too low.......even for a 125cm..!!.....but you got it sorted in the end...........after this high signal time..has finished.....and you have proved to yourself your 125gibby is nearly ok....just a upgrade to a Gibby 150 ...might be big enough after all....??....that was yor original posting ....Right..?

 

[TonyWhalley]

Nice one "tony"..,,great result...eh..?.....don"t forget... I did say your signal was way too low.......even for a 125cm..!!.....but you got it sorted in the end...........after this high signal time..has finished.....and you have proved to yourself your 125gibby is nearly ok....just a upgrade to a Gibby 150 ...might be big enough after all....??....that was yor original posting ....Right..?

Yes, I think the 150 is the correct solution (to give bad weather coverage), but will see how it goes over the next few weeks and perhaps up to Astra 2E going operational.
If I go to the 150, I will setup the 150 on the garage (which I can do by myself including alignment) and run both in parallel until I can cut over.
As mentioned by Mickwig the local guys are not comfortable over my existing set up, which they believe is big .... and that a 150 will not bring a benefit .... but they didn't think the skew would make a difference either .
I think if things stay the same, the biggest surprise was the multiswitch, but these are still early days, with reports of improved signals, I could find it all falling apart in no time!

 

[hexah]

Yeah, too late and too big. The concrete flag has reinforced steel mesh inside. However. the depth is too little so I will have to cover the foot of my mount with some kind of plastic in order to try to keep the water off the underside of the base, since when it freezes here (down to -30 C when it gets bad) I don't want the ice to lift the flag. Plastic fake grass with some stone flags to weigh them down is a rather good idea. As for the snow in the dish - fortunately the wheather usually come from the west and the dish is pointing easterly. I also have a brush with a VERY long handle which I needed for the PF dish on the roof.

I hope you don't get frost heave otherwise you would have to underpin it with concrete. And that will not be fun.

I have never heard of it being done but you could try making a wooden deck around your mount.

I very strongly suggest you don't use a brush on your dish. Like using a brush to remove snow from the car it will leave swirls and scratches on the dish. The swirls and scratches make a key for the snow, ice, water and muck to stick to the surface of the dish. Keeping the dish face pure means they will slide off more easily. I use a telescopic squeegee with sponge to remove the snow and to wash the dish face and use a microfibre car wash mitt to clean the back (mine is textured) and mount. If you look at the dish manual it should say not to use harsh detergents on it. I use Dri-Pak liquid soap flakes on my dishes. It is gentle, it will not damage the surface coat and it is very effective. There is nothing better to use on the dish face. Rinse it down with a hose not a pressure washer.

You can also use the telescopic squeegee and sponge to clear snow from the car. You just push it off then use the rubber blade to quickly clear the windows. It is small so it can be easily stored inside the car. A top tip I learnt from a Finnish guy years ago is to use the car screen cleaner and wipers to wash the front and rear windows before turning the engine off. I use -20C screencleaner in winter (and always carry a litre of -65C for top ups). That stops the ice forming overnight and any bits of snow come off instantly in the morning. (His other top tips were to wear yellow / amber sunglasses in snow, to enjoy the sideways movement because it is "fun" and that the Finns are the best drivers in the world ).

There are lots of big dishes that are 25 to 30 years old and are in good condition. If you look after your dish and replace any nuts and bolts if they show any sign of rust with A2 stainless steel then it will easily give excellent performance for fifty years or more.