28E Fringe Reception Setup ; Researching whats required for 2F in Madrid

[davidcmadrid]

Hi,

I was about to shell out to a local installer for UK Freesat reception and fortunatley discovered that 1N is temporary ( Im in Madrid ). I realised i need to do my own research and be ready when Signal reports come in for 2F so that if it is viable to get the UK spot here in Madrid Im ready to purchase what ( if ) I can afford.

Attached is my circumstance which isnt greatest for Fringe reception. Im on the 3rd floor of a 6 story building , the roof is unused so I can put a decent sized dish up there. I can put WF125 down the side of the building but it gets messy once the cable comes into the house as our living room is on the other side of the building. So i was thinking about putting some form of equalised gain slope LNB amplifier where the cables join and trying with existing cable from canal plus or putting in WF65 ( dont want the missus giving out with thick cable running along the wallsO-no ). How badly does this plan reek of not working from a db loss point of view ..does anybody have experiencing of overcoming longer cable runs ?

Im a bit lost with the LNB , as per the diagram I have identified the Gibertini 1.8m as a good dish option, prob the best I can afford to be frank ( ? ) so dont know what LNB would be good. Are high gain LNBs a marketing buzz or can i squeeze some dbs out of the system with LNB choice .. I read good things about " invacom " LNBs ..does a real world better option exist here ?

Im amazed at how tight they can make a beam , I see that even people in England are having problems to get Saorsat which has an Irish footprint , so all this might become academic with the beam not reaching Madrid.. if that happens Ill assess what I can realistically recieve and make a decision about whether to proceed with this new ( and expensive ouch ) hobby.

If you have any thoughts or threads of research i should take or indeed specific component reccomendations for me to look at and research Id be very indebted.

 

[Captain Jack]

To be honest, if I were you, I would wait and see what happens when Astra 1N gets replaced. It could well be that the Spot beam could still be reachable on modest size dishes or you may find that even a 1.8m won't be enough.

What's the total cable length from the roof to the receiver? Anything under 50m should be OK with a decent cable - a WF/CT100 should do this job OK. I had cable runs of 40m with only a very marginal loss in signal. Others here, like AnalogueSat have 60m cable runs to the bottom of their gardens with no issues. However, I would recommend that you don't have a join but a straight run. Or you could use this opportunity to put an inline amplifier there.

To be honest, I haven't heard of a 1.8m Gibertini dishes. From what I know they do 1.5m and Channel Master/Andrews do a 1.8m. For larger dishes, a matched feedhorn is what you want. I haven't tried many C120 LNBs (the one that would go on the end of the feedhorn) but the Inverto Black Pro performs very well. If you are not using a feedhorn (but I recommend that you do) then you won't do much better than a Black Ultra - and yes there is a difference between the LNBs, but go on the recommendation rather than marketing blurb.

As for the Irish beam - it's a Ka band spot beam. They don't get tighter than that and is something that can't yet be done with Ku band but they are getting close. We'll see what Astra 2F brings to us.

 

[timo_w2s]

I'd also rather use a complete length of WF/CT100 rather than break it up with different cable types.

The Invacom QDF-031 Universal Quad is good for larger dish installations, I'm using a couple on some 1.8m dishes. Apparently the single and twin versions of the LNB aren't as sensitive.

 

[Analoguesat]

We just dont know what the situation will be atm. Wait a couple of months until 2F is lit up and then we will have loads of reception reports from all over Europe just like we did with 1N.

 

[solly]

@capitan jack
the ka band will be rte channel from ka band use eurobird from 9e ?
it very interesting

 

[bonou2]

From my experience I can recommend the following lnb
Single HGLN 40mm LNB IDLB-SINL40-ULTRA-OPP (black-large only for antena offset)

Single Flange LNB IDLB-SINF01-OOPRO-OPP+feedhorn invacom c-120 (only for antena parabolic PFA)
Twin Flange LNB IDLB-TWNF00-OOPRO-OPP+feedhorn invacom c-120 (only for antena parabolic PFA)

Invacom Universal Twin LNB 0.3dB C120+feedhorn invacom c-120 (only for antena parabolic PFA)
Invacom Universal Quatro LNB 0.3dB C120+feedhorn invacom c-120 (only for antena parabolic PFA)

View attachment 44752 - View attachment 44753

View attachment 44755 View attachment 44756

View attachment 44754

 

[solly]

@bouno
the feed with inb inverto
it normal feed how much db are you got c/n
?

 

[davidcmadrid]

Thank you all for the replies Captain Jack it is a channel master 1.8M i meant to say .. I got confused between brands. The approx lenght of the run from roof to house entry is 20 meters I would say , plus another 20 -25 in the house .. im in two minds ( read clueless ) about the benefit of having thick low loss for the first half and then easier to install cable inside , i used to build my own antennas as a ham radio operator and i know i lose db with both distance and breaks. Analoguesat , yes its best to wait I agree could be throwing money away or spending too much / little.. nobody but my local friendly satellite installer ( apparently ) knows.

Bonou from those photos that looks like Rivas in your photos in down in the Retiro ..thank you for post.

Im off now to research feedhorns .. thanks so much for the advice , this forum has a great feel and i thank you for taking an interest in posting to a newcomer.

 

[Analoguesat]

You are better off with a continuous cable run - even a small break will introduce losses. Here in the UK it really doesn't matter as the signals are / will be so strong but in extreme fringe reception its a different matter - you want ever single ounce of signal transfer.

 

[davidcmadrid]

As for the Irish beam - it's a Ka band spot beam. They don't get tighter than that and is something that can't yet be done with Ku band but they are getting close. We'll see what Astra 2F brings to us

Im reading around the internet and especially this forum trying to enhance my knowledge and read that Saorsat can use a frequency set that is also being broadcast to france from the same satelite. I am amazed that this is possible and I wonder to get Sky movies and FTA UK channels id be better to look at iptv something or other. To me that they can focus a beam from 36K miles away on a country the size of Ireland and yet its hard to pick up 500 miles of target is stunning.. what is so different about Ka signal versus other regular signal ?

 

[PaulR]

Ka is a much higher frequency band than Ku and as such can be focused much more tightly. It has no effect or direct relevance to Ka band transmissions so don't worry about it.

 

[davidcmadrid]

Ok I am getting ready to order my kit this weekend and had a thought about this now that im faces with the reality of piping WF100 through the house. Remember I have cerca 40 m of new but i would assume lossy cable in the house already.

One question I face is this. The family are used to the spanish stations on 19.2E and i wish to recieve 28.2E 2F also. I have a choice in "the plan". Bearing in mind I have already installed cable inside the house in order to avoid routing a new cable i was thinking off taking advantage with the approach mapped in the attached replacing the cable down the outside of the house and then at the point where it would joininto the houses already made cable ( which already has a split in it ) etc.

I understand that the loss in a diseq switch would be the order of 4db , there is also some loss due to run lenght and break. Given people here in Madrid get 2F on a 1m ( some pixelation in heavy rain ) if i get a 1.4m / 1.5m dish do you think that would give me margin to overcome the weakness in this setup ? Im kinda trying to avoid running another cable through the house and i dont think WF100 is practical inside the house going around bends and things anway .. read somewhere it needs 6cm radius to make a turn.

The weakness here to me seems :

1. Dual LNB / Diseq ( im assuming as 19.2e could be the secondary focus of the lnb array with no problems )
2. Amp join , not sure what I lose in join but would hope amp would compensate
3. Lower grade cable for last 30 meters.