A 3.7m Prodeline dish for Astra 2D

trigger

Specialist Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2004
Messages
682
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Age
54
Location
Puerto del Carmen, Lanzarote
My Satellite Setup
30W, 27.5W, 7W, 0.1W
4.8E, 9E, 13E, 19E, 23.5E, 26E, 28E
Technomate 5402HD super
Bein Sports on 25.5E
FTE Mini S2T HD Analyser
Horizon HD S2 sat meter
My Location
Lanzarote, Canary Islands
I would like to add my thanks again for such a detailed and informative post.
 

pjgregory

Member
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
46
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
76
My Satellite Setup
Humax FoxSat HDR,
Prodeline 3.7m dish,
Invacom C120 Quad LNB,
50m Hirschmann KOKA 799/500 Cable,
HD Home Theater System
My Location
Montepulciano, Italy
Corviello suggested I make some signal strength measurements during the day to get an idea of the variation. These are all taken with my Satlook NIT spectrum analyser inside the house at the end of about 50m of coax. Times are all local Europe summer time (BST +1).

The first number is the measured signal strength in dB, while the number in brackets is the S/N ratio, again in dB, once the meter had locked onto the signal. All measurements fluctuated by 0.5 - 1.0 dB over a 1-2 sec time period so these are the peak readings obtained.

10729V 10773H 10847V

8am 59.6 (9.1) 56.3 (7.6) 58.3 (6.6)

11am 58.6 (9.0) 55.9 (7.5) 57.9 (7.5)

2pm 58.7 (9.0) 56.1 (7.7) 57.6 (6.6)

4pm 58.6 (9.0) 55.7 (7.5) 57.1 (6.2)

6pm 58.4 (9.0) 55.9 (7.5) 57.1 (6.1)

8pm 57.0 (7.4) 53.4 (6.0) 55.8 (No Lock)

10pm 57.1 (7.6) 54.6 (6.1) 56.1 (4.7)

There are signs of a gradual fall off in signal during the day with a marked reduction at about 8pm although this seems to improve again later.

Another point. Corviello used a RO.VE.R SDA 6 digisky meter. This seems to be much more sensitive that my SatLook. When aligning the dish, this meter would lock to a weak signal, while the SatLook would only show noise. He measured C/N (S/N) values of12.5 dB on 10773H at 4.pm and 12.0dB at 6.pm compared with mine in 7.5dB range.

Anyway - it is all still working and that is what really matters.

PJG
 

satelliteman

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
12,039
Reaction score
387
Points
83
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
Northants, Midlands UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
Fairly stable and good results over a 50m cable run.

Minimum signal to receiver >52dBuV although if CNR is OK then this can fall to 50dB.

Required CNR for an FEC of:
5/6 is >12dB
3/4 is >10dB
2/3 is > 9dB

:)
 

Coviello

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2003
Messages
82
Reaction score
23
Points
8
Age
89
Location
Potenza (Italy)
My Satellite Setup
Prodelin 11ft (335 cm)
Windows 2000 XP
My Location
Southern Italy
Thank you for the datas. My RO.VE.R has the following thresholds:

FEC 1/2 4.5 dB
FEC 2/3 5.0 dB
FEC 3/4 5.5 dB
FEC 5/6 6,0 dB
FEC 7/8 7.0 dB

For instance, 12.0 dB on 10773 H also gives a large margin (+6 d:cool:.

Coviello
 

patmos

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
170
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Age
63
My Satellite Setup
STRONG SRT-4910+,SunRay4HDse,TBS5922, 2.4M P.F Apstar7(76.5 DEGE), 120cm dish PAS 10 Ku( 68.5 DEGE),3.0M Mesh Motorised dish on arc (AM44 (11DEGW) to AM33(96.5 DEGE),150 cm dish W3C(16 DeG E)+ side LNB Ew2A(10 DEGE),90cm W4/W7 (36 DEGE)
My Location
Mauritius
pjgregory said:
Another point. Corviello used a RO.VE.R SDA 6 digisky meter. This seems to be much more sensitive that my SatLook. When aligning the dish, this meter would lock to a weak signal, while the SatLook would only show noise. He measured C/N (S/N) values of12.5 dB on 10773H at 4.pm and 12.0dB at 6.pm compared with mine in 7.5dB range.

Anyway - it is all still working and that is what really matters.

PJG
While working with different analyzers I noticed that the C/N dB reading is a function of the phase noise of the equipment. The equipment with better phase noise will actually measure the true noise floor against the measured carrrier.On the other hand the one with poorer phase noise will actually compare the noise floor of the equipment itself against the carrier.A signal may be present but is not seen by the instrument as it is buried in the equipment's noise.Generally the more expensive equipment reads higher values. The readings you are giving are all correct to me. Each one needs to know his instrument.
 

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
35,640
Reaction score
8,590
Points
113
Age
59
Website
www.sat-elite.uk
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK
pjgregory said:
Some more thoughts

1. The Channel Master 1.2m dish has a published mid point Ku band gain of 42dB, while that of the Prodeline 3.7m dish is 50.7dB. So I should have an increase of some 8.7dB. The measured improvement in gain with the same LNB etc. at 10964H is only 3.8dB so unless the published figures are wrong, I am still missing some gain - maybe the focus issue?

2. On the question of the focus, while it was easy to simply drill out the supplied Prodeline feed horn to take the Invacom horn, the range of focus was in the end limited to about 1.5cm. If I started again, I would follow Channel Hoppers advice and make a new flat aluminum plate instead with a boss to hold the Invacom horn. This would give me a much wider range of focus positions.

There could be a focus point issue, especially since the first side lobe is/was 4.6dB below the maximum gain of the Channel Master reflector.

Maybe you are still not on the main lobe ?

Have you tried measuring each side of the reflector up to the edges of the feedhorn ? If the boresight is not correct this throws off the main focal point, and introduces odd lobes of signal, which often throws the installer into attempting a false correction of the azimuth, or the position of the satellite.

But you have done well so far, impressing the wife is never easy.
 

dxsat

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
745
Reaction score
70
Points
28
Age
69
Website
skyinmadrid.com
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
Which analyser/meter would the panel recommend? Looking to upgrade from the Lacuna Mk3 and 4 we currently use, which are adequate but pretty basic.
 

satelliteman

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
12,039
Reaction score
387
Points
83
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
Northants, Midlands UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
For an analyser - one that will measure dBuV, PrBER, PoBER & CNR or MER.
Promax do an entry level Spec to cover the above as do Rover.

SM
 

geoffrey

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
135
Reaction score
22
Points
18
Age
81
Location
Zichron Yaacov
My Satellite Setup
2.4M ChannelMaster Offset with Smart Titanium TQS LNB. LG SMART TV with SuperTrack V-Box 2 on ChannelMaster 1.2M Offset. TBS5925 tuner with EBSPro on Windows 10 laptop. Satlook Digital NIT.
My Location
Israel
pjgregory said:
Some more thoughts

1. The Channel Master 1.2m dish has a published mid point Ku band gain of 42dB, while that of the Prodeline 3.7m dish is 50.7dB. So I should have an increase of some 8.7dB. The measured improvement in gain with the same LNB etc. at 10964H is only 3.8dB so unless the published figures are wrong, I am still missing some gain - maybe the focus issue?
PJG
You may be interested in a comparison I did a few months ago between my ChannelMaster 1.2M and DH 3.6M dishes using the same Invacom LNB and cable for the measurements which were done within 20 minutes of each other. I also used a Satlook NIT for the measurements. At my site dish elevation is 53 degrees.
On 11973V the measurements were:
1.2M 55.6dBV; S/N 3dB; calculated C/N 2.4dB
3.6M 63.2dBV; S/N 9dB; calculated C/N 7.5dB

I found a Horizon meter invaluable in peaking the dishes because its display is much easier to see than the Satlook's in strong sunlight - its also more sensitive than the Satlook.

On a Digibox I have been unable to receive the Astra 2A North beam transponders other than 12480V. I have blamed this on interference from Badr satellites due to the side lobe performance of the DH dish. Have you had any problems with these transponders ie Gold+1 on 11992H, Paramount Comedy 2 on 12148H and Sky2 on 12226H?
 

pipino

Back from the dead
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
913
Reaction score
146
Points
43
Age
54
My Satellite Setup
2X Channel Master 1.20 , 1X Channel Master1.80 ,1X Channel Master 2.40, Motorized Gibertini OP150 , Motorized Fibo MF90 ,, 70cm eliptical raven ..hirschmann fibre glass 1.20m
My Location
Comunidad Valenciana..ESPAÑA
geoffrey said:
On a Digibox I have been unable to receive the Astra 2A North beam transponders other than 12480V. I have blamed this on interference from Badr satellites due to the side lobe performance of the DH dish. Have you had any problems with these transponders ie Gold+1 on 11992H, Paramount Comedy 2 on 12148H and Sky2 on 12226H?
Hi ,
did you do any tests witht PLL LNBs like SMW or Norsat ,because using those kind of LNBs would sort the cross frequency between close satellites
 

geoffrey

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
135
Reaction score
22
Points
18
Age
81
Location
Zichron Yaacov
My Satellite Setup
2.4M ChannelMaster Offset with Smart Titanium TQS LNB. LG SMART TV with SuperTrack V-Box 2 on ChannelMaster 1.2M Offset. TBS5925 tuner with EBSPro on Windows 10 laptop. Satlook Digital NIT.
My Location
Israel
pipino said:
Hi ,
did you do any tests witht PLL LNBs like SMW or Norsat ,because using those kind of LNBs would sort the cross frequency between close satellites
I did try using two Invacom WR75 mount LNB's (SPV-3SM) with the full Seavey feed and OMT (with the several Global change over switches that are needed with this arrangement). This arrangement was no better at resolving the 2A North Beam problem - maybe because the presumed interfering Badr transponders are the same polarity as the Astra transponders. Unfortunately these LNBs have an integrated transmit filter which reduces their receive performance and are not PLL types. I have been unable to find WR75 mount PLL LNBs with the necessary band switching and performance to match an Invacom Quad Universal. If you know otherwise please tell.
 

pipino

Back from the dead
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
913
Reaction score
146
Points
43
Age
54
My Satellite Setup
2X Channel Master 1.20 , 1X Channel Master1.80 ,1X Channel Master 2.40, Motorized Gibertini OP150 , Motorized Fibo MF90 ,, 70cm eliptical raven ..hirschmann fibre glass 1.20m
My Location
Comunidad Valenciana..ESPAÑA
hi ,
i was talking about something similar to this

_http://web.dxsatcs.66.sk/php66/index.php?str=7&spr=24

and

_http://web.dxsatcs.66.sk/php66/index.php?str=7&spr=23

regards
 

geoffrey

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
135
Reaction score
22
Points
18
Age
81
Location
Zichron Yaacov
My Satellite Setup
2.4M ChannelMaster Offset with Smart Titanium TQS LNB. LG SMART TV with SuperTrack V-Box 2 on ChannelMaster 1.2M Offset. TBS5925 tuner with EBSPro on Windows 10 laptop. Satlook Digital NIT.
My Location
Israel
pipino said:
hi ,
i was talking about something similar to this

_http://web.dxsatcs.66.sk/php66/index.php?str=7&spr=24

and

_http://web.dxsatcs.66.sk/php66/index.php?str=7&spr=23

regards
Problem is they dont cover the range needed for a Sky Digibox - and they are not very sensitive.
 

pipino

Back from the dead
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
913
Reaction score
146
Points
43
Age
54
My Satellite Setup
2X Channel Master 1.20 , 1X Channel Master1.80 ,1X Channel Master 2.40, Motorized Gibertini OP150 , Motorized Fibo MF90 ,, 70cm eliptical raven ..hirschmann fibre glass 1.20m
My Location
Comunidad Valenciana..ESPAÑA
since you are in israel ,do you know an LNB maker from israel called AME ?? i never seen one but i heard they are top notch and used for difficult situations
 

Moradabad

SAT SPECIALIST INDIA
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
796
Reaction score
7
Points
18
Age
45
My Satellite Setup
One 12 Feet Heavy Antenna, one 10 Feet Double Rib Antenna

Dreambox Dm500S, DM 7025. HD Receiver,Envision,
Eurostar receiver, 4 Dual LNBS, 5 PFA Lnbs
My Location
india
Hi Friends,


Does Prodeline only manufacture 3.7 meter Prime focus dishes. Do they manufacture 3.7 M offset antenna's.

I have seen most of the people using 3.7 M PFA dishes, no one used offset one.

Does PFA big dish gives same signal as offset one.

Thanks
 

divibi

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
201
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
44
My Satellite Setup
dvb-s pci card
85 cm offset dish
My Location
London
Moradabad said:
Hi Friends,
Does Prodeline only manufacture 3.7 meter Prime focus dishes. Do they manufacture 3.7 M offset antenna's.

Hi,

There's a Prodelin 3.8m offset dish. It's a very good, professional dish.
 

incold

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
77
My Satellite Setup
Clarke Tech 2100+ 3.4 metre dish

Windows XP
My Location
Southern Tuscany and St Leonards
I am in Caprese Michelangelo (AR). With a 3.4 metre mesh dish SAM (US) dish, and 25 metres of cable plus a Clarke Tech 2100 plus I can get all the Astra 2D FTA, but lose ITV 3 around 10.15pm local time until about 8 am. The others go blocky around 1 am. I am curious to know if anyone gets s a better result. I have problems in very heavy rain. By the way the altitude of the dish is 510 metres if that makes any difference!
 

pjgregory

Member
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
46
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
76
My Satellite Setup
Humax FoxSat HDR,
Prodeline 3.7m dish,
Invacom C120 Quad LNB,
50m Hirschmann KOKA 799/500 Cable,
HD Home Theater System
My Location
Montepulciano, Italy
Hi Incold

You are about 60km NNE of me so should have similar reception conditions. With my set up, heavy rain does not seem to cause a problem, although I did loose most of my channels when the dish filled up with snow during the winter. Normally, I am never awake at 1am to see if the TV is working so I cannot say if I have similar issues.

Your main problems could be using a mesh rather than solid dish, 3.4m rather than 3.7m and an unspecified LNB (I have the recomened Invacom Quad and adjustable feedhorn). I have about 60m of cable, so your 25m should not be a problem. I don't know your receiver either, but I have now switched to the Humax FoxSat HD PVR receiver. As far as I can tell, it perfoms just as well as my former Pace box. Over Easter I watched (and recorded) Wallace and Gromit in HD from BBC HD in Tuscany!

Unless you really want to watch TV during the night, I think you should just be pleased with what you have achieved. To get Astra 2D at all where we are is a real challenge.

Enjoy!

PJG
 

pjgregory

Member
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
46
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
76
My Satellite Setup
Humax FoxSat HDR,
Prodeline 3.7m dish,
Invacom C120 Quad LNB,
50m Hirschmann KOKA 799/500 Cable,
HD Home Theater System
My Location
Montepulciano, Italy
This is an update about my 3.7m dish.

Sometime in late summer last year, we had a lightning storm which must have damaged the LNB as it just stopped working. I replaced it with a new Invacom C120, and although the system worked during the day, BBC and ITV would break up early evening. Then came some really heavy winds that rotated the dish on its mounting pole and bent one of the support bolts. So the winter was spent with no satellite reception, just poor quality streaming TV over the internet.

With spring weather over the last few weeks and the World Cup looming, I had another go at getting the pictures back. First off, I bought a ROVER S2 meter as even on my first attempt, my Satlook Digital NIT monitor was too noisy to get a reliable lock on any of the Astra 2D transponders.

The starting point was to install two anchors in the concrete pad behind the dish and use wire cables and turn-buckles to secure each side of the the rear mount framework. (Pic2). I then found that there was some interaction between the azimuth and elevation adjustments. Tightening the bolts to lock the dish in the best azimuth would move the elevation angle slightly. With hindsight, I should have remove my original mounting pole and replaced it with a much larger, correct diameter pole when I installed the 3.7m dish rather than just using longer securing bolts.

In the end the procedure I used was to slacked the bolts just so that I could rotate the dish – set best azimuth using the signal meter – tighten the pole bolts one at a time in fractions of a turn and then make a fine elevation adjustment.

Moving to the front of the dish, I machined out the centre of the cast aluminium support and then fixed it back to the support legs with much longer bolts and multiple nuts so that I could make fine adjustments of the position of the mount relative to to the axis (Pic3). I make a new mounting collar with single grub screw to lock the feedhorn into place. Getting the feed horn in the right place was difficult as there are four things to adjust, the x and y positions relative to the axis and the two tilt axes. So the feed horn could be off centre with both x and y errors, but tilted so that it still points at the centre of the dish.

My procedure was to first measure the distances from front surface of the mount to four equispaced points on the edge of the dish. I then used the screw adjustment on the base of the support legs to get the distances equal. Then I mounted a laser pointer into the feedhorn and adjusted the bolts at top of the mount to get the laser pointing at the centre of the dish base plate. I could find no way of getting the laser exactly concentric with the axis of the feed horn, so the best I could do was to ensure that the spot moved in a circle around the centre point as I rotated the feedhorn. I estimate that I got the laser axis within 2mm of the centre which about 0.1° error.

I printed a scale of |||||||| characters (Times 12pt Bold) spaced 0.85mm apart on a sticky label and stuck it around the rim of the LNB flange (Pic4). With a pointer glued to the support base, and given the flange diameter of 50mm, I could read the skew angle to an accuracy of about 2°

The following measurement were made between 2-3pm local time on 3/04/2010. Once I got a lock onto transponder 45 (10773H), I used MER(Modulation Error Ratio) to fine tune the system. See

hXXp://pacificsatellitenews.com.au/2009/06/mer-modulated-error-ratio-what-is-it/

Angle MER
21 11.3
22 11.4
23 11.6
24 11.8
25 12.2
26 12.2
27 12.1
28 11.7
29 11.2

The correct skew angle for my location is -9.3°. The scale above is somewhat arbitary as it was difficult to set a horizontal level. However, it does show a clear peak at mark 26 with an error band of about +- 2°

These results were taken with the front of the feedhorn set 1369mm from the base plate. This the focal length given by Prodeline (1371mm) minus 3mm to bring the point just inside the tube. I tried moving the focus point in and out by +/5mm but with no measurable change in the MER. I set the spacing of the annular ring at 4.3mm to match the F/D ratio of 0.37. Again moving the ring in and out by about +/- 2mm produced little measurable difference.

The final measured results for the transponders that I am interested in were

Frequency Station Noise Margin MER
tp41 10714H Channel 4 4.5dB 12.1dB
tp42 10729V Channel 4+1 3.8dB 11.9dB
tp44 10758V ITV London 3.4dB 11.0dB
tp45 10773H BBC1 , 2, 3,4 4.5dB 12.2dB
tp46 10788V BBC 1 Regions 3.4dB 11.0dB
tp49 10832H ITV Regions 4.2dB 11.8dB
tp50 10847V BBC HD 3.6dB 11.0dB
tp53 10891H ITV Regions 4.2dB 11.7dB

It is clear that the horizontal polarized stations are generally better than the vertical ones, but then I did set the skew using a horizontal station. I would rather have the best I can for these rather than try balance the performance over both polarizations. In any case the ROVER S2 meter gave a Quality = PASS on all transponders.

The outcome of all this careful work?. Last night at 10pm, I was able to see all the channels, including BBC HD with no breakup. All's well until the next storm!

PJG
 

Attachments

  • Pic2.jpg
    Pic2.jpg
    315.1 KB · Views: 250
  • Pic3.jpg
    Pic3.jpg
    173.1 KB · Views: 303
  • Pic4.jpg
    Pic4.jpg
    177.8 KB · Views: 268

satelliteman

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
12,039
Reaction score
387
Points
83
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
Northants, Midlands UK & Lanzarote, Canary Islands
Pretty impressive MER readings there for 2d transponders.

Nice result.
 
Top