Advice Needed North West Spain - Maximising Performance of my Installation

[Brano]

My initial installation in 2007 was set up for Astra 19.2º and 28.2º with two lnb´s (Sharp I think) to receive Freesat UK channels (28.2º) and any other English language channels (19.2º). In 2011 I bought a Humax Foxsat-HDR and had my installer change one lnb to a quad with two feeds to the Humax. The remaining single LNB was not changed and feeds the old Fone Star receptor in the kitchen. At this time I stressed I was only interested in Freesat 28.2º but the installer said there was no need to realign the dish itself. With the recent change of satellites at 28.2º with the UK narrow beam I want to ensure the performance of my installation is maximized, without changing the 1.8m dish. In good weather I currently receive all Freesat channels with no problem – when it rains, frequency 10714 H, (Channel 5 Film 4) is the first we lose.
So, I want to get my installer back and brief him to ensure I maximize the performance of the installation. Advice please on what to ask for, and apologies if my thoughts are obvious but I am no expert in this field.
1. Should the actual dish be realigned bearing in mind it originally was set up for 19.2º and 28.2º?
2. Does cleaning the dish make any significant difference?
3. Should I consider a change of the quad lnb (I suspect it is of Sharp manufacture but I am not sure) to a higher spec and if so what make/model? I have seen Invacom C120 and Inverto Black Ultra mentioned?
4. I am reasonably confident that the cabling and installation is to a good quality and standard so I see no need for changes in this area.
5. ???

Many thanks

 

[Analoguesat]

1) Only if the perceived performance has degraded after a storm or you suspect anything is loose, or the kids / grandkids have kicked a ball into it (It happens!)

2) I rarely clean mine and many of them get covered in green algae. If the dish is very grubby a gentle sponge with warm soapy water isnt going to do any harm - just make sure you dont get the lnb soaking wet.

3) Its certainly worth changing it - lnbs do degrade over time especially when they cook in the continental heat. Its worth experimenting with lnb's - many of us find the black ultras do well but there are exceptions

 

[PaulR]

Was the dish set up with the LNB for 28E in the primary position? This would then have had the 19E off to one side on a bracket. If the LNB is in any other position (two LNBs on either side of he primary position or the 19E LNB in the primary position) then it won't be getting maximum signal.

Any chance of a uploading a photo here for us to look at the installation?

 

[Brano]

Sorry if I am doing the uploads all wrong! Difficult to get good shots of installation due to pitch of roof, house on side of hill, cabages and maize not to mention rain - this is Galicia! The single lnb which was set for Astra 19.2º is to the left of the quad. Many thanks for your comments and advice.

 

[PaulR]

Well, the quad LNB is certainly in the right position for 28E. Not so sure about the one 19E but if you get a strong enough signal for your purposes then leave it alone.

1. Should the actual dish be realigned bearing in mind it originally was set up for 19.2º and 28.2º?
Not specifically. You make the alignment for the one that's most important and then make the secondary one fit as best as possible. As far as I can see the 28E LNB is already in its best position on the dish.

2. Does cleaning the dish make any significant difference?
Not until the dish is overgrown with moss. It's just cosmetic reasons for most cleaning.

3. Should I consider a change of the quad lnb (I suspect it is of Sharp manufacture but I am not sure) to a higher spec and if so what make/model? I have seen Invacom C120 and Inverto Black Ultra mentioned?
The Invacom Quad has had a good reputation in Spain for many years. Some people rate the Inverto Black Ultra as being pretty good as well but equally some have not.

4. I am reasonably confident that the cabling and installation is to a good quality and standard so I see no need for changes in this area.
OK.

5. ???
It would come under the "adjusting for best signal" but the skew of the LNB is critically important in fringe reception.

 

[Brano]

Many thanks for your feedback. In summary then, it would appear I have a good quality installation. The change to the quad lnb and Humax Foxsat/HDR was when I was receiving the strong signals from the previous satellites. Skew of the lnb at that time may not have been so critical because of the strong signals. So if there is any possibility of improving reception (short of a larger dish) it is likely to be the skew of the lnb and possibly the lnb type. Does lnb selection include consideration of the type of receptor, in my case Humax and are there any specific suggestions of make and model if I decide to go down that route? In many respects following the replacement of the Astra satellites with the narrow UK beam I am fortunate to generally recieve good reception compared to many others! It does however rain here in Galicia!

One last question - why does HD reception quality drop off far quicker than SD.

Again, many thanks for your feedback and advice.

 

[PaulR]

There are a few LNB/receiver combinations which don't work particularly well but they are few and far between. AFAIK there are no specific combinations which work exceptionally well.

When you fit the new LNB that is perfect time check the overall adjustment of the dish in case it has moved slightly. Skew adjustment would be done at the same time.

HD channels are broadcast with a higher FEC (forward error correction) ratio which means that there is less error correction available to correct the signal. This raises the floor below which the signal cannot be recovered compared to an SD signal.

 

[Brano]

Many thanks for the information and advice.

 

[archive10]

I think your installation should be just fine.
From your pics, the dish is clearly either a Tecatal copy or a re-branded Prodelin 118x dish.
Those are very good. if mounting bracket is good too, you should not need re-alignment.
As others have said above, the 28.2E is in the right position.
Do get someone with a meter or, slightly more cumbersome, a phone-link to the someone watching the TV, to help you maximise skew of the LNB.
This is very important for getting the last few % out of the installation.
My sharp quad performs almost as well sa the Inverto Black Ultras, but has lower output.
So unless your are signal-strength challenged, you should be fine.

The main thing to consider is that the Astra 2E channels are now at 28.5E.
This means less if you are on a 60cm dish in berkshire, but a lot if you are on the fringe (say, in Spain).
The larger and more precise your dish, the more the alignment matters in this respect.
I have an equivalent Channel Master 180 on the fringe in Denmark, and alignment matters a lot now!

So either live with the alignment as-is, but possibly optimizing skew.
One possibility is to update LNB to IBUx, to make sure you have new LNB (these things wear out, sometimes just over a period of a few years).
Else get an installer with a meter, and who knows what he's doing to get the best compromise between 2E/2G... (if they don't know what this means, they are not qualified).

 

[Brano]

Many thanks. Is there a specific model number to quote for the IBUx quad so my installer understands - I may source it myself. In the wilds of Galicia I do have some language problems! From the picture I posted could you hazard a guess at the make of quad LNB I currently have which is about 4 years old?

 

[dxsat]

The current LNB does not look like a Sharp. Changing to an Inverto Black Ultra Quad (but not any other Inverto model) should result in a big jump in performance.
You have a Prodelin dish. Looks like a 1.8m. Cleaning the dish once a year is a good idea. Also keep the LNB face clean.
The installer needs to double check the pointing of the dish towards the prime 28.2º position. Prodelin dishes don't have such a good mounting system as former ChannelMaster products. A tweak once a year is advisable.
The LNB forward/back position is a critical, very important adjustment. Not all LNBs have their internal antennas in exactly the same position. The LNB has to be in the exact focus point.

 

[Brano]

Thanks for the advice. In summary then I will:

1. Brief my installer (who has no other customers using Freesat in my part of rural Spain) on the fact that I am now wanting the installation to be best set up for the UK beams from Astra 2G at 23.2º and Astra 2E at 25º. The original installation was for 19.2º and 28.2º.
2. Ask him to review suitability of the current quatro LNB.
3. Ditch the single LNB which is for Astra 19.2º and may be an unnecessary complication. I think it is only of use to me for BBC World news which I can live without.
4. Clean the dish.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[4wd]

Brief my installer (who has no other customers using Freesat in my part of rural Spain) on the fact that I am now wanting the installation to be best set up for the UK beams from Astra 2G at 23.2º and Astra 2E at 25º

You definitely do not want to pay anyone to do that :O) See Astra 2G: Scandinavia & Baltics Reports for current sat locations.

 

[Brano]

Sorry should have said brief my installer to optimize for Astra 2G at 28.2º and Astra 2E at 28.5º! Too much red wine last night! As a matter of interest is there such a thing as an Idiots Guide to Satellite TV as the technology is interesting but clearly beyond my level of comprehension when I read a lot of the threads on this site? Pointing a dish in the right direction surely only requires a spanner and a compass.

 

[Hughes]

Here's my slant, or skew on the matter. As others have said, skew is crucial when reception is at the limit. If you are able to access the dish yourself, and safely, I would slightly loosen the nuts holding the LNB so that you can twist it. Do this when the picture is starting to break up so that you can appreciate any improvement. Don't go on the roof if it's wet or damp! Twist the LNB by only a couple of degrees. Film 4 is only on one frequency, but this is not the case with BBC 1 and 2 HD. At certain times of the day you will find the Wales, Scotland and/or Northern Ireland versions to be stronger. By experimenting with different postcodes as well as BBC preferences you can get the best ITV 1 and HD combination as well. My Humax HDR box at present thinks it is in Norwich, which gives me BBC1 East East, Anglia, and Meridian HD, and ITV 1 +1 is OK. As regards LNBs, I use a Black Ultra single as my dish is only 1m50, and all the dual and quad LNBs I've tried have been inferior. Generally in this part of Europe vertically polarized signals seem to be stronger than horizontal. With the ever tighter footprint, I may have to upgrade to a larger dish, especially once the Galician rain sets in for the winter!

 

[Brano]

Thanks neighbour, albeit belatedly, for the information. Certainly having run through all the Strength/Quality percentages for Freesat channels the vertically polarised signals are better here and I have saved these to my favourites on the Humax.

I have my sat installer coming in this week for a discussion and the only other possibility he has suggested in addition to those already mentioned in this thread is to paint the dish. I have searched this in the forum and the jury seems to be out on potential benefits. I asume the theory is it improves the reflection of the signals to the LNB. Any thoughts? I presume there is a recommended paint type?

Lastly, since the move of Astra 2E to 28.5º which was certainly noticeable on my system, particularly 10714.25H I am surprised I have not picked up more chatter on Fórums regarding reception issues. Or have I missed something?

 

[5ºwest]

hi Brano
I am in eastern asturias and am finding the 28deg reception difficult so some of the things I have found with fringe reception may help

I have a Gibertini 1.5 dish with an Invacom quad LNB and Gibertini feed horn.
When first set up I got almost nothing, then last winter it all sprang to life only to dissapear again in the summer. By early September all was ok again but went again last week but seems to be coming back now.
so in summary - its very much on the edge and brobably needs a bigger dish.

difficult to say if the signal where you are is much different but with a 1.8 you should be ok
but my suggestion to improve reception would be

1) as has been suggested - get another LNB. the Inverto Black Ultra Quad gets good reviews and have one. but I have found the Invacom QDF-031 with a Gibertini feedhorn to be better
( is it a quatro you have? quatro is when you have a distribution system - more likely to be a quad)

2) yes get rid of the 19deg bit and concentrate on 28deg

3) bias the alignmet to 2E 28.5 at the expense of 28.2 it reception is difficult, unless you really want the channels on 2F 2G and the signal is good enough

4) yes clean the dish but only if it looks very dirty - but don't think painting will help

5) think the Humax Foxsat HDR is one of the best for fringe reception, it locks on signals where my Horizon meter can't so you are ok there

6) one other strange thing is that things seem to work better on a cable of say 30m/40m than they do with 10m

so overall a new LNB and a check of the alignment should be enough

hope some of this helps.

 

[Brano]

Thanks 5ºwest. Very helpful.

Yes I have a quad LNB as you rightly point out.

When there is no rain I have no problems with reception apart from 1o714H which is from 2E and has only been apparent since the move to 28.5º. With the old satellites I was spoilt with a large rain margin and at the time it could have been argued that the dish was larger than necessary. So I suppose I am fortunate that with the dish I have and a few tweeks I can enjoy good reception most of the time.

For me Astra 2E is the main source of channels I want so I will have the alignment adjusted for that. Clean dish, no painting, discuss LNB type and possibly change - I don't actually know the current make and model! I will make a record of signal strengths and quality before and after the tweeks and post the changes.

Thanks again

 

[Archive4]

Don´t know if this helps, but in my experience the Inverto Black quad is nothing special. The Goobay seems much better in my area of Spain. I have also noticed that many of the 1.8 dishes in my area that were set up for 2D do benefit from a slight adjustment, normally a slight drop in elevation and a bump East to get the best from 2E ( not too far, you start to loose 2G ie. Channel 5 on 10964H and the ITV HD´s etc ) LNB skew is critical for the ITV HD´s if you can see them, BBC HD´s are much more forgiving.
I´d try a position adjustment before buying a new LNB, but that said if you can get a new one prior to engineer visit it would probably be cheaper to get it changed at the same time to save a re-visit cost.
If all else fails move south a bit, less rain and the signal down here is stronger!