UK police raid Blackburn pubs and seize satellite equipment

Salty25

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Kevjackson said:
What nobody has mentioned is that the copyrite law actually states that if a broadcaster (sky) sells the licence/rights to another platform (art/digitalb etc)
then what ever the platform does with them is no concern to the original owner.
QC Leisure a north west company has recently been issued with a writ from MPS (employed by sky) for selling "illegal sat equipment".
Sky think they are a law above themselves - using bully boy tactics, and frightening the publicans with threats of large fines etc but if they sign up nothing will be said....

You'd probably be right if that were the case, but it's the Premier League who sell the rights in all territories, and there must be a condition in the contract that any broadcast who wins rights in a territory not to sell their rights in territories where other broadcasters own rights (ART own the rights in the Arab sub-contenient, so can not sell in UK where Sky own the rights). Otherwise, what value are the rights?
 

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Skip Channel said:
Shame the police haven't got anything better to do. Around my way there has been a steady increase in violent crimes (usually random and often for no apparent reason) and yet some forces can find the time to raid commercial premises that are showing the wrong kind of telly!
I suggest you should blame police. They are supposed to enforce the law, whether it's fair or not.
Furthermore, they are supposed to execute orders. If the order says "go arrest him" the police officer should do as he is said.
 

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tesla said:
I suggest you should blame police. They are supposed to enforce the law, whether it's fair or not.
Furthermore, they are supposed to execute orders. If the order says "go arrest him" the police officer should do as he is said.

Last month I had two police officers come to my apartment just after 11pm because of music I played for less than an hour and which finished before 11pm. The music was at a moderate volume and I'm the only person in the block with carpeting. About half an hour earlier I ignored a single buzz on the intercom system (as I have lots of nuisance callers, kids, drunks, druggies etc) which presumably was the delighful neighbour that called the police on me. Had they rang my doorbell I would've spoken to them, because they didn't they called the police and the police were at my door in 30mins.

The thing that really gets me is there's a guy in my block who ran a grow-op (and all that entails) and sold drugs from his flat - and also used it as a bit of a drugs den with people coming and going (in a bad state) 24/7. The guy was doing this for well over a year (and really blatent he was too!) before the police did something about it. He caused damage to his apartment, put the lives of other residents at danger (dodgy electricity!) and he's still living here.

I've lost my faith in our police. They're better than nothing but that's not good enough.
 

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its,real ,unbelivible,when i read this,i think,its against european law,and does not refkekt,the rights of the free market..

in no other country,a pay tv operator do this!!

maybe,the use,satelite jammer,in the future,to block,the signal,of dubai sports :)
 

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Turok said:
in no other country,a pay tv operator do this!!

I think you'll find that they would given similar circumstances.
 

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Skip Channel said:
Last month I had two police officers come to my apartment just after 11pm because of music I played for less than an hour and which finished before 11pm. The music was at a moderate volume and I'm the only person in the block with carpeting. About half an hour earlier I ignored a single buzz on the intercom system (as I have lots of nuisance callers, kids, drunks, druggies etc) which presumably was the delighful neighbour that called the police on me. Had they rang my doorbell I would've spoken to them, because they didn't they called the police and the police were at my door in 30mins.

The thing that really gets me is there's a guy in my block who ran a grow-op (and all that entails) and sold drugs from his flat - and also used it as a bit of a drugs den with people coming and going (in a bad state) 24/7. The guy was doing this for well over a year (and really blatent he was too!) before the police did something about it. He caused damage to his apartment, put the lives of other residents at danger (dodgy electricity!) and he's still living here.

I've lost my faith in our police. They're better than nothing but that's not good enough.


This is where the problem lies, The police have to investigate each individual case on its own merit.

If your Playing loud music and Mr joe bloggs is sellin crack from his apartment, the police will deal with you first. quite simply because your playing load music and can be heared by everyone.

Mr Bloggs on the otherhand is selling drugs seemingly blatent to you, to the police it wont be blatent because the people buying, neighbours watching without reporting. There has be enough evidance for the CPS to say "Yes he's selling drugs" and have him nicked.

Same with showing football on a saturday.;.; No pint glass on the bottom right your blatently breaking the law end of. this can be proven.

It seems in this country, if the law doesnt turn a blind eye to the law breaker, the law is in the wrong. We all have to follow laws,

If we break copyright laws or play loud music and dont expect to be taken to court, where do we stop??
 

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I am a pub landlord and have Sky Sports at an outrageous cost of 1051.63 per month (plus more for prem plus).

The pub is a large local and our sports bar will only hold 35 - 40 people so it is difficult to make a profit by having Sky. The problem being that we are charged on the rateable value of the entire premises.

The exhorbinant cost (which is due to rise in September) will mean that we cannot afford to renew Sky Sports. A shame for both us and our customers.

Without competition, Sky can charge what they like and get away with it.

Not very sporting if you ask me!

Louis
 

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I agree that their method of calculating the charge can be unfare (certainly in pubs like yours) and generally the costs are too high anyway, but unless publicans in concert, bite the bullet and cancel, then they will continue to charge these prices.
 

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Hello!
how much you pay,when Sky see,that i pub,showing dubai sports instrad of sky?

in no other,european country,the police would operate,in the name of a pay tv operator!

i read in german newsletter satelliline,a view month ago,that same pub owner,will go the way,of law against sky,because,the dont acept there rules ,sounds like,laws in cuba:(
but we live in free europe!

.so the eu must handel,very quickly!
 

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Turok said:
in no other,european country,the police would operate,in the name of a pay tv operator!

Sorry, but you are totally wrong there.

Turok said:
i read in german newsletter satelliline,a view month ago,that same pub owner,will go the way,of law against sky,because,the dont acept there rules ,sounds like,laws in cuba:(
but we live in free europe!

.so the eu must handel,very quickly!

Not quite sure how Cuba came into this but yes, we do live in a free Europe, or at least probably more free than many other areas in the world, but free doesn't mean that you don't have to pay for things.

The major TV companies turn a blind eye to domestic satellite viewers watching their football from other providers who have not paid for the national copyright, but they will not turn a blind eye to someone who is showing the content for commercial gain and not paying for the privilege.
 

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Anthony Reuben reports:

An appeal about whether it is legal to use foreign satellite equipment to show live English Premier League football in British pubs is to be heard in the High Court next year and many people's livelihoods depend on the decision.

Karen Murphy runs a very English pub.


It is called The Red, White and Blue, its sign features the Union Flag and it serves proper beer, pork scratchings and scampi fries.

Everything about it is English - except the satellite decoder, which allows it to show live English Premier League football.

That comes from a Greek broadcaster called Nova, which charges Karen about £800 a year - compared with the £6,000 a year that she would have to pay Sky for the service.

She found out about the Nova box through Gales, the brewery that used to own the freehold on her pub.

"At a Gales sales meeting they introduced me to this system and said 'buy it', so I bought it," Ms Murphy says, as she prepares to open her pub for the day.

But the message changed when the brewery was bought out.
"Fullers then took over and sent a letter saying they would advise it was removed," she adds.

'Happy to be used'

It is not just Fullers that holds that view.

The FA Premier League (FAPL) is unhappy about it as well - and is using a company called Media Protection Services to have Ms Murphy, and several other publicans, prosecuted for breaching copyright law.

The FAPL argues that BSkyB has till now had the rights to every Premier League match broadcast live - although from next season Irish sports broadcaster Setanta will also be able show a number of live games.

That, the FAPL says, means that it is illegal to show live Premier League football in a UK pub unless the publican has a valid commercial agreement with BSkyB.
In Karen Murphy's case, the FAPL won in the magistrates' court and the crown court and the case is now the subject of a High Court appeal which will decide whether the use of foreign decoders is illegal.


There are many people with a lot at stake in Ms Murphy's court case, and she accepts that she may be a pawn stuck in the middle of a dispute between larger companies.

"I was quite happy to be used because I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't believe what I was doing," she says.

"I don't want to be dictated to by a monopoly, it's as simple as that."
An FAPL spokesman agreed that people like Ms Murphy were in an awkward position, but blamed the satellite installers.

"I feel sorry for the publicans because they are being used by a group of people who are providing an illegal and misleading service, but ultimately it's the publicans who stand to lose the most," he said.

Loophole?

However, the FAPL refuses to sell live rights to games shown at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon to anyone in the UK - not even BSkyB.

And this, according to the installers, creates a legal let-out clause.
It comes as little surprise that their trade body, the Association of European Satellite System Installers (AESSI), is backing the publicans who are being prosecuted.

Joe Ibrahim, an AESSI member who runs Digital Sales UK, obviously has a great deal at stake too if Ms Murphy loses her appeal.

"We would have to close or try to find some sort of alternative business to do," he says.

"It seems wrong that we should have to do that when as far as we're concerned we haven't broken any law."

Risking everything

Ms Murphy is not the only publican being taken to court for this.

In fact, she is not even the only one on her street.

About five doors down from The Red White and Blue is the Royal Exchange, which is run by Derek Hopper.

The Royal Exchange is also a very English pub - it has a quiz night and a weekly meat raffle.

But its satellite decoder comes from a Moroccan broadcaster called ART.

Publicans such as Mr Hopper and Ms Murphy say they are risking everything to pursue these cases.

"Under the terms of our licensing law, anyone with a criminal record can be deemed by the council as not a fit and proper person and that license can be revoked," he says.

"And it's not just losing your livelihood, it's your house."

Ms Murphy says that she and Mr Hopper are not the only ones using foreign systems in the area.

"There's hundreds of pubs in Portsmouth that do not use Sky and they've only attempted to prosecute five of us," she says.
"Within walking distance from here there's another 20. They all use it for a reason - they obviously can't afford Sky."


The FAPL, for its part, is in no doubt about which law is being broken.

Its cases are being prosecuted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which centres on whether the publican "dishonestly receives a programme provided from a place in the UK, with intent to avoid payment of any charge applicable to the reception of the programme".

The installers say that their clients are not avoiding making a payment because they are paying the European broadcasters - and in any case, have no charge to avoid since there is no UK broadcaster providing games live at 3pm on a Saturday.

Exclusive rights

The case is likely to feature numerous experts, arguing a huge range of issues which might more usually appear in a civil case - not least that of whether the signals have actually been "provided from a place in the UK".

The FAPL has now started pursuing civil cases against two of the installers and some publicans.

However, success in the criminal courts could serve as a deterrent to other publicans using foreign systems.

The FAPL has an enormous amount at stake in this case, because if it loses then Sky could lose its exclusive live broadcasting rights to certain matches.

If Sky were to lose those rights, it might then try to recoup some of the £1.2bn it is paying for them - and that would be bad news for the Premier League clubs now basing next year's budgets on a massive TV rights windfall.
It could be that the fate of a Portsmouth publican could decide the fortunes of football's biggest names.

SOURCE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6594775.stm, last accessed on 06/06/2007
 

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1. The Pub can not be done under any breach of copyright as long as they have paid for a valid subscription.
2. The law on the showing of live football at 3pm on a Saturday is not a law at all but a restriction imposed by the FA on British TV companies.
3. Civil suits are the only way for Media companies to persue this if they have the bottle but they do not have a case at all. This is all bluff and scaremongering.
4. Under EEC law it is legal to purchase and import anything within the EEC freely. Including TV services if the selling company are willing to supply this.

Sky have been actively oposed to the spread of "rival" services for obvious reasons and have been active in promoting making such spread difficult if not impossible. eg: Sky Italia, Premiere and NDS based systems that require a Box Key ID. There are ways around even this now. However, there are still providers who have "open" access systems based purely on card encryption whose cards can be purchased and just plugged & played. eg: ART, Nova, DigitalAlb.

In England, virtually every pub I use between Northampton and Swindon and West London at weekends has live 3pm football showing quite nicely thank you very much on a Saturday.
 

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We have argued this over and over, in previous threads. which was why I didn't comment on the post above initially, I would rather wait for the court decision.

dirtydonki said:
1. The Pub can not be done under any breach of copyright as long as they have paid for a valid subscription.

Define valid, does valid mean that they have a subscription from somebody who has the right to sell subscriptions/have broadcast rights in the UK?

Could you buy a residential subscription from Sky (probably not much more expensive than a Nova subscription) and show it to a pub full of people without problems? No you couldn't and even on the Nova website, they say that if you want to use the card in a bar, you require a commercial subscription.

Sky and the Premiership don't seem to have a major problem with domestic satellite viewers, it is only the people who are showing the football to an audience for profit, without paying for the privilege.


dirtydonki said:
2. The law on the showing of live football at 3pm on a Saturday is not a law at all but a restriction imposed by the FA on British TV companies.

agreed, it isn't a law, I've stated this on many occasions, but it actually means that nobody has purchased the right to sell subscriptions for those matches in the UK, so anyone using a card from outside the UK can not have paid for the right to view them.

dirtydonki said:
3. Civil suits are the only way for Media companies to persue this if they have the bottle but they do not have a case at all. This is all bluff and scaremongering.

You could be proved very wong, but only time will tell.

dirtydonki said:
4. Under EEC law it is legal to purchase and import anything within the EEC freely. Including TV services if the selling company are willing to supply this.

Does this override International copyright law? The Jury is still out.

dirtydonki said:
Sky have been actively oposed to the spread of "rival" services for obvious reasons and have been active in promoting making such spread difficult if not impossible. eg: Sky Italia, Premiere and NDS based systems that require a Box Key ID. There are ways around even this now. However, there are still providers who have "open" access systems based purely on card encryption whose cards can be purchased and just plugged & played. eg: ART, Nova, DigitalAlb.

And your point is?

dirtydonki said:
In England, virtually every pub I use between Northampton and Swindon and West London at weekends has live 3pm football showing quite nicely thank you very much on a Saturday.

These have mostly been supplied and very actively marketed (supposedly with legal insurance/guarantee) by a small number of companies who style themselves as crusaders for no TV frontiers (yeah right;)), in real terms they have in many cases charged ridiculously over the odds for pretty basic installations.


There were several thousand football supporters who were able to get into the Stadium at Athens for the Champions League final without tickets, as there weren't sufficient checks and security, does this make it legal or right, do you congratulate them?

I don't.

What I will say though, is that if long term there is no control over the abuse of residential overseas subscriptions by commercial entities, then either the amounts bid for the rights by the UK companies will quickly diminish (affecting the Premiership income), or there will be only secondary timeshifted rights sold to the overseas companies and this will affect us hobbyists.
 

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Well this is a very high profile subject and no amount of discussion will provide the answers that people want..

My own opinion is simply this

If you wish to watch your country's own (i.e. your national team) football team play then you should be able to do that without incurring financial penalities.
The broadcasters have overstepped the limit now and must backtrack unless they prefer a country full of people who will support anything but the England football team. The whole situation is driven by money

It is totally wrong that you cannot watch your national side play a game of football FTA
 

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I agree with you about the national football matches Topper, but that is another subject altogether.
 

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Yes sorry that was completely OT, wrong thread I think. What I was going to say about this thread is that it really all comes down to us only holding half membership of the EU, we only adopt the bits we want and the rest we reject.

If we were fully committed members then I would have to agree that European law prevails and Sky would have no jurisdiction to stop landlords receiving matches via broadcasting from Nova using a pub license. However we do seem to reject or ignore a number of European laws which rather muddies the waters. I think the rules concerning uncompetitive practices should apply and competition should be introduced to allow people and landlords to have a choice. I really do not see why sky would be afraid of competition

I think we will have to wait and see what ruling is made
 

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And long may we not be fully committed members, in fact I wish we were far less committed. The British public seem to pick and choose the bits they would like applied as well. ;)

Again though, with reference to the Nova sub, if those licensees were in Greece, then they would be having to pay the commercial subscription rate, not the domestic one they are at present using.

If it was a free for all under a totally free market, then the providers like ART who were actively selling into this country, would be having to pay an awful lot more for their Premiership package than they do at present, they would also have to make some arrangements to respect the 3pm closed period, or The Premiership would have to scrap it and let Sky show them as well.
 

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rolfw said:
And long may we not be fully committed members, in fact I wish we were far less committed. The British public seem to pick and choose the bits they would like applied as well. ;)

Absolutely Rolf and it is this picking and choosing which blurrs the edges of everything so that nothing is clear cut any more
rolfw said:
Again though, with reference to the Nova sub, if those licensees were in Greece, then they would be having to pay the commercial subscription rate, not the domestic one they are at present using.

I thought the £800 per year was the Nova commercial rate, it surely cannot be the domestic, whereas the sky rate is £6000, or have I misunderstood something
 

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No, the £800 will not be the commercial sub, it will be the amount they are being charged for a domestic subscription by the UK supplier with their little bit added on, which I'm sure will not be excessive. ;) :-lmao
 
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