Weird Diseqc Switch problem with Icecrypt sat box

jeallen01

jeallen01

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Good afternoon

Has anyone seen anything like the following weird behaviour:

I have now got the Icecrypt STC3250CCIHD connected to one of my BEST 4-way switches which controls 4x LNBs on one of my dishes, and via my SMS DSM10 sat signal meter before the switch, but something very weird appears to happen.

AFAIK, these BEST switches are committed 4-way Diseqc 1.0 items and therefore should only (?) respond to signals to connect to LNBs 1-4 – but the DSM10 [which, unusually. has Diseqc signal leds for a 2-way DiSEqC system (A or B for MiniDiseqc)and an 8-way system (S1-S8) to show which Diseqc selection has been made ], and that shows that the actual selected LNB is often different to that selected in the Diseqc options list (i.e. 1-2 of 2, 1-4 of 4, 1-8 of 8, and 1-16 of 16). For example with the 3250 set to LNB 2 of 4, the meter sometimes shows the selected LNB to be 1 of 4, or 3 of 4, rather than 2 of 4, or sometimes even a non-existent LNB 7 or 8.

This behaviour is confirmed when I put my hand in front of each LNB in turn (the dish is at ground level!) and that shows that, even though I have selected LNB 2 in the 3250 menu, LNB 1 is actually the active receiving LNB because the signal strength on the meter changes considerably only when my hand is in front of that one.

I have also occasionally noticed that the actual selected LNB can sometimes start out as – say – LNB 2 but then change to another LNB after a few seconds, just as if the 3250 has changed the signal to the switch during that period.

BTW 1: I had an old, but working, Spaun 411 4-way switch on this dish until yesterday afternoon when I began to notice the same sort of behaviour with that, thought it had gone faulty and swapped it for one, and then a second (!), of the BESTs (I have 3 of them) – but I now see that they all exhibit very similar behaviour!

BTW2: Nothing like this happened when I had the 3250 connected to the Opticon 10-way switch (still factory configured in Mode 1 as it appears practically impossible to get the programmer to change it to anything else!) with 8x LNBs on 2 other dishes nearby!

All this is leading me to think that there is something weird going on in the 3250 – but I have no idea what it might be.

Therefore does anyone have any idea what might be going on &/or suggest a solution to the BEST/SPAUN 4-way switch issues?

Thanks in advance.

John
 
I'm not claiming expert status here, but the fact that several switches are exhibiting the same problem suggest that the Icecrypt is the culprit and as erratic behavior can stem from power supply problems, if it were mine, I'd be whipping the lid off to look for bulging capacitors.
 
PGH

I'm pretty much inclined to the same opinion about the receiver, but it's only just out of its 2 month warrantee (it was a refurb item, but it looked virtually "like new" and came with accessories and box that looked the same, and so it was probably just an obsolete model that they had) - and I would not have thought that it had been run for long enough to cause that sort of capacitor degradation.

Therefore I've put the same questions to Tech Support at Turbosat from where I got it to see what they say. Also, I have a SquareTrade warrantee on it and so I'm loathe to break the warrantee seal on the case at this point in time for both of those reasonsl.

However, I was interested in what you guys might think - and you seem to agree with my initial thoughts.

BTW: this receiver was bought as a cheap "starter" to get back into satellite reception after many years, and so there's not too much cash invested in it (£60). However a paid-for replacement was not anticipated so early, and so I hope that Turbosat can come up with a decent solution (like a free replacement even though it is out of their stated warrantee??) .
 
Is the switch properly grounded?

Or have you checked the ground to the switch for corrosion?

A poorly grounded switch or no ground at all at the switch can cause the Diseqc 22 KHz signals to migrate or cross talk between ports/LNB's and cause weird switching problems, seen it before and grounding the switch real good helped.

Don't just rely on the coax shield to ground the switch as the shield has several ohm's of DC resistance in a long run of coax.
 
Terryl

Many thanks for your comments which are all very sensible, and here are my repsonses.

The switch itself is not grounded - possible to do that, but to where and what as there is nothing near the dish that is "grounded" unless I drive a grounding rod into the soil below the dish? However that might introduce huge ground loops because the house is 25m away from the dish, and at the moment the receiver is in the dish in the garage and very close to the dish in order to set up the system without walking miles every time I make an adjustment. Also, the receiver is a Class II Double-Insulated design with no mains chassis connection.

I could bond the chassis to the ground in the ground in the garage power distribution system, and then run direct ground connections to the dish and the switch body - but even then I introduce external ground loops between the LNBs, the switch body and the receiver.

As for the corrosion aspect:
- the switch is brand new, as are most of the cables and connections between the receiver and the switch, and then the switch and the LNBs
- almost all the interconnections are brand new copper double-screened WF100/PF100 and virtually all the F-connectors are also all brand new - and very carefully fitted to ensure clean and positive connections to the cables with no screen-core shorts.
- the interconnecting cable from the receiver to the BEST switch is exactly the same one as that used to connect to the Opticom 10-way switch on the other two dishes - it's double copper screened sat coax, although air-spaced and not solid insulation WF100/PF100.
- 2 of the 4 LNBS on the dish are brand new Inverto & Technomate units, but those are those that seem to suffer most the Diseqc issues.
- therefore I don't think that corrosion is the issue.

OTOH, Turbosat Tech Support told me that the receiver uses a combination of Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 commands to select the LNB, and the receiver-chosen mode seems to depend on how many LNBs you want to connect to the switch - but the algorithm for the choice is not yet clear!

I still think the receiver is not working correctly.

John
 
Last edited:
pgh13 said:
I'm not claiming expert status here, but the fact that several switches are exhibiting the same problem suggest that the Icecrypt is the culprit and as erratic behavior can stem from power supply problems, if it were mine, I'd be whipping the lid off to look for bulging capacitors.
Click to expand...
I agree, if you have changed the switches and it is still causing problem, then it most likely the receiver. Could you borrow another receiver? That would prove it one way or the other.
 
Scopus

I don't know anyone locally who might have a suitable receiver. I do have my old Technomate which, IIRC, does have Diseqc but it has not been turned on for over a decade and so I am not sure it even still works (that one might well have capacitor problems!).

I'm now waiting for a reply from Turbosat as I got a read-receipt from them yesterday and so I know my email to them has been received - so I'll see what they say (hopefully on Monday?).
 
jeallen01 said:
Scopus

I don't know anyone locally who might have a suitable receiver. I do have my old Technomate which, IIRC, does have Diseqc but it has not been turned on for over a decade and so I am not sure it even still works (that one might well have capacitor problems!).

I'm now waiting for a reply from Turbosat as I got a read-receipt from them yesterday and so I know my email to them has been received - so I'll see what they say (hopefully on Monday?).
Click to expand...
Worth a try using your old TM.
 
Scopus

Going to give that a try, but then ran into a small hitch - the 5500DAPCI only has SCART & RF out connections but the monitor I'm using for the 3250 only has DVI and VGA connections.

Going to have to hope that my very old (Its a CRT set!) 10" portable TV will work well enough to display the o/p from the TM - does not help that I can't find the TM manual and have only managed to download the quickstart guide :-(
 
Wonders will never cease: the 12yr old TM (5500DAPCI) still works, and so does the (very battered, and several times repaired - by me!) 25yr old Nikkai CRT portable TV.

So got those down to the garage and connected up via the RF o/p on the TM, and then (after a lot of fiddling because I haven't use the TM for a very long time) got 4 sats set up to connect to 4x LNBs via the Diseqc 1.0 options A-D - and it appears that the Rx reliably switches between the LNBs when you select the different satellites - with none of the "now it's there, but now it's not " LNB selection problems that I get with the Icecrypt.

The TM only has Diseqc 1.0 and not 1.1, and so there should be no confusing signals to the BEST switch, although the LNB selection LEDs on the sat meter are still all over the place, and so I'm placing less confidence in that now (although it was fine with 7-8 LNBs connected the Icecrypt via the Opticon switch).

Will now be emailing Turbosat with what I have found!

One other minor advantage is that I now have sound on the TV & Radio channels - but one big disadvantage is that the TM has no blind search and only relatively limited transponder and channel memories, so it's not so good for identifying which bird an LNB is locking onto if appropriate transponder settings are not known.
 
Might be time to get a TM 5403 M3 works really well with my Diseqc setup.
Is your software up to date on the Icecrypt?

As others have said the PSU might be giving you the problem.
 
Scopus

IIRC, I updated the Icecrypt s/w just after I got the unit. Don't really want to open the box/break the warrantee seal as I am hoping that Turbosat will offer to fix the machine - might open it if that does not happen.

After the experiences that I and others have had with TM Tech Support and (lack of!) on-going firmware/database upgrades for older machines, I'm unsure whether I want to buy another of their products!
 
jeallen01 said:
Scopus

IIRC, I updated the Icecrypt s/w just after I got the unit. Don't really want to open the box/break the warrantee seal as I am hoping that Turbosat will offer to fix the machine - might open it if that does not happen.

After the experiences that I and others have had with TM Tech Support and (lack of!) on-going firmware/database upgrades for older machines, I'm unsure whether I want to buy another of their products!
Click to expand...

Yes, in total agreement with you on the TM support front...
 
jeallen01 said:
Terryl

Many thanks for your comments which are all very sensible, and here are my repsonses.

The switch itself is not grounded - possible to do that, but to where and what as there is nothing near the dish that is "grounded" unless I drive a grounding rod into the soil below the dish? However that might introduce huge ground loops because the house is 25m away from the dish, and at the moment the receiver is in the dish in the garage and very close to the dish in order to set up the system without walking miles every time I make an adjustment. Also, the receiver is a Class II Double-Insulated design with no mains chassis connection.

I could bond the chassis to the ground in the ground in the garage power distribution system, and then run direct ground connections to the dish and the switch body - but even then I introduce external ground loops between the LNBs, the switch body and the receiver.

As for the corrosion aspect:
- the switch is brand new, as are most of the cables and connections between the receiver and the switch, and then the switch and the LNBs
- almost all the interconnections are brand new copper double-screened WF100/PF100 and virtually all the F-connectors are also all brand new - and very carefully fitted to ensure clean and positive connections to the cables with no screen-core shorts.
- the interconnecting cable from the receiver to the BEST switch is exactly the same one as that used to connect to the Opticom 10-way switch on the other two dishes - it's double copper screened sat coax, although air-spaced and not solid insulation WF100/PF100.
- 2 of the 4 LNBS on the dish are brand new Inverto & Technomate units, but those are those that seem to suffer most the Diseqc issues.
- therefore I don't think that corrosion is the issue.

OTOH, Turbosat Tech Support told me that the receiver uses a combination of Diseqc 1.0 and 1.1 commands to select the LNB, and the receiver-chosen mode seems to depend on how many LNBs you want to connect to the switch - but the algorithm for the choice is not yet clear!

I still think the receiver is not working correctly.

John
Click to expand...
If the receiver is not grounded through the AC power plug to a house ground then there should be no possibility of a ground loop problem, grounding the dish it's self is the best thing to do, then right where the coax enter the house a ground block should be used, then connected back to the new ground rod with a #12 or larger copper wire, most dishes should be grounded for safety.

I usually bond the dish to ground at the shortest point to a true Earth ground, then connect all other equipment to this ground, you can daisy chain the ground (dish to switch to ground block to ground rod) or do a radial ground from all equipment to the single ground point.

If your grounding wire is longer then 10 meters then go to the next size larger copper wire. (with a green jacket)

Where I live the soil is only 12 to 15 inches deep, then you hit solid granite, so I had to dig a 6 way ground system for all my antennas and dishes, this was 6 trenches as deep as I could go (a back hoe works wonders for this) in a radial pattern, each leg was 10 meters of 3/8 inch copper tubing (I will explain this later), all meeting at the center ground point.

All my radios, antennas, antenna tower, lightning arrestors and dishes are connected to this master ground, (the tower base is located at this main ground connection) it works very well.

As I mentioned I would explain the 3/8 inch copper tubing, it is all connected and several holes are drilled in it, about twice a year I pump salt brine into it, this improves the ground tremendously, I worry about my equipment as we do have a lot of lightning around here.
 
Terryl

I see you agree with me about my comments about the issue of there being little chance of ground loops for the switch in my situation, and I think you will already have read that I am now pretty sure that the Diseqc switching issue relates to the signals that the Icecrypt receiver is generating.

OTOH, I agree with your dish grounding approach in your geographical location, but don't think I need to do that in my area of the UK because the topsoil is very deep and we have had a lot of rain (especially in the last few years!) which ensures that it is always fairly damp and conductive. We do have lightning from time to time but have rarely had any ground strikes in the recent past (never had a really local one in the 40yrs I have lived in this house) and so I don't feel justified in going to a lot of effort to ground my dishes to cater for the very small chance of preventing lightning damage (although I might just add a grounding rod near the dishes and run heavy cables , or use some copper piping , to connect them to the rod - just in case).
 
pgh, scopus

After today's "experiences" I am coming around to thinking you could be right about the PSU and especially the caps, because, following latest Turbosat Tech Support advice, I have now downloaded and installed the latest f/w (0A0B2B00_1.6.89) from the Dropbox link on the Icecrypt site – the previously installed version was slightly earlier, and so I must have installed that just a few days before the current version was made available.

The box then booted up and seemed to run OK for about 60-90 mins and correctly identified and accessed my selected LNB’s via the BEST Diseqc 1.0 switch. However, a little time after that things seemed to start going wrong and the “old problem” of random LNB selection came back, persisted and got so bad that I finally switched the box off after about 2½ hours. I then put the TM 5500 back and that correctly accessed the selected A/B/C/D LNBs on the switch – so that appeared to confirm that the switch was working OK.

Have passed this info back to Turbosat and am waiting to see what (if anything?) happens now.
 
Update.

After passing the info in the 2nd para of the previous email on to Turbosat - and then a bit of a delay until I dropped a hint on raising the issue via the eBay complaints service! - they have offered to repair/replace/refund the machine "without predudice".

I said I would actually prefer to have the existing unit repaired if possible, rather than replaced by another which might develop the same symptoms fairly soon. Just waiting for an RMA number before I send it off to them.
 
Update:

Got emails today to confirm that Turbosat has refunded my money because they can't determine what the problem was after a few days of testing - fair doo's, and good service (which is what I expected) from them.

Leaves me with a problem though because I was kind of counting on having the 3250 as my basic/simple Rx and then buying a "proper" Linux-based (probably) Rx (probably a VU+ of some variety at the moment) for the more complex stuff.

Now, without the 3250, I stuck with the decision of whether to buy another "simple" Rx (which one?) for the basic stuff and that could cost nearly as much as a Linux-based Rx OR a Linux based Rx (which one?) OR both (in which case I'm going to have to spend nearly 50% more than I had hoped)?

Any ideas? (pretty please, but don't forget I'm still in the "learner" stage!)
 
Oooft, that's a shame mate, I see your dilemma. It would be alright if somebody was selling a "simple" RX secondhand on here at good price so you could go with your original plan of then moving on to a Linux box. After personal experience with different rx's I'd say go Linux with the cash. I'll re-read this thread later and see if I think the same mate.

Sent from my thl 2015A using Tapatalk
 
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