What existed before time and space?

Saturlight

Saturlight

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Everything has a starting point and it's supposed to be "The Big Bang".

No, not the "Big Gang Bang", starring the late departed third armster John Holmes - that's on s_x View Betamax!

No, I am talking about when time and space started. Because there had to be something there to start it, and create such a vast area of space and time. What caused the bang? What was so massively powerful it erupted?

And why didn't it do it before it happened? Why then? And for how long did time and space not exist?

Not exist.
 
Well, I believe in the theory that as out current universe is slowing down, it'll turn in on itself an compress all matter into one big ball, then when the pressure is great enough you get a big bang and it starts all over again... :D
 
Current theory is that the universe will keep expanding until eventually all matter drifts apart.

Pretty dispiriting eh?

Oh, and there was nothing before the big bang because time hadn't started up until the big bang.
 
Saturlight said:
Everything has a starting point and it's supposed to be "The Big Bang".

No, not the "Big Gang Bang", starring the late departed third armster John Holmes - that's on s_x View Betamax!

No, I am talking about when time and space started. Because there had to be something there to start it, and create such a vast area of space and time. What caused the bang? What was so massively powerful it erupted?

And why didn't it do it before it happened? Why then? And for how long did time and space not exist?

Not exist.
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wait till me old mate spiney gets his teeth into this:)
 
......er, wozzat? Hang on, let me have a shower and some breakfast ........

........ that's better.

As PaulR says, there was no "time" before the universe (Hawking also has a topological theory that there's no "beginning", since the topology becomes different around the big band "event").

Time is a property OF the universe - closely tied up with thermodynamics, entropy, statistical mechanics, etc - and probably would not otherwise exist. It is certainly not something "imposed from outside".

(If you think you can "imagine" a completely empty universe - but with time still passing - then think again, what's the flaw here?).

Don't forget, what you humans call time (oops!) is entirely subjective, clocks tick at different rates for observers in relative motion (special relativity).

There's also the possibility that subjective time is entirely a "human construct", ie, Kant's "transcendental" pre-condition for any perceptions at all to take place!

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm .
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/entropy.html .

http://www.iep.utm.edu/k/kantmeta.htm#H4 .
For Kant more generally, see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08603a.htm .

(Note, the Catholic Encyclopedia is an excellent general reference on philosophers, probably the best such on The Web - for quick browsing - although far more "in depth" articles exist on more specialist sites!)
 
2cvbloke said:
Well, I believe in the theory that as out current universe is slowing down, it'll turn in on itself an compress all matter into one big ball, then when the pressure is great enough you get a big bang and it starts all over again... :D
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So I can sleep soundly in my bed tonight, then? ;)
 
I know you lads know better than me, especially our own Steven Hawkings, Spiney, but I simply cannot believe there was a time when time did not exist, if time is infinite, then why should it have a start or end?
 
spiney said:
......

If you think you can "imagine" a completely empty universe - but with time still passing - then think again, what's the flaw here?
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Because I cannot get my head round it.
 
Saturlight said:
So I can sleep soundly in my bed tonight, then? ;)
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Unless you sleep for billions of years, yes... :D
 
You asked for it - what follows is purely speculative as it's a bit difficult to verify at the moment :-DOH2

Yes, we're turning back into 11-dimension space :-worship

remember M-space, the 11-dimension super structure where our whole universe is but a spaghetti-like thread infinitely thin but infinitely long ? Well, we are not alone in M-space. M-space is filled with these super-structures, each having their own shape and set of physical laws. :cool:

What would happen, scientists wondered, if 2 of these super-structures would collide in M-space ? The energy levels released from such a collision would be gigantic, and would create an expanding energy bubble in each of the super-structures. Yes, it's not one but two big bangs, one in every super-structure. :-DOH!

the big bang in our super-structure created an expanding 3-dimentional space filled with matter and energy : our universe. We don't know what happened in the other super-structure, the energy dispersion method is dependent of the physical laws of that super-structure, and we can only guess. One possibility is that it too created another universe, filled with matter -or anti-matter or whatever- :P

from this point of view, the big bang is only one event some time in the past of the history of our super-structure. Time in our universe might have started then, time in our super-structure already existed and it's clock is still ticking. Before the big bang, M-space existed, and these 2 super-structures were moving towards each other. The collission itself didn't probably change much in M-space, the 2 super-structures bounced back and are now moving away from each other. As such, the creation of our universe wasn't a big event for M-space. :(

Indeed, there is no reason why our super-structure would not have suffered other collissions in the past. There may be several universes in our super-structure alone, all resulting from past collissions, and there may be an infinite number of super-structures in M-space. :D

As to the final fate of our universe : it may expand forever, dispersing it's energy gradually, and ending up cold & empty, or the expension might be reversed, shrinking it back into the super-structure from which it was expelled, to be either absorbed or re-expelled in an oscillating fashion.

Isn't science marvellous ;)
 
This interesting topic just caught my eye, since little else happening on the forum for a MR owner.

Sounds lke JTA is clued up, or as much as anyone who delves into this kind of thins can be. Even Prof Hawking gets it wrong sometimes! JTAs description is similar to my own 'belief', as I'm no expert on the technical level. What I imagine is that the Universe, (as in the one that our Milky Way and other galaxies exists), is only one of many. One of many that is that either exist now, or have existed in the past. If you agree on the definition of infinity, then there are some inescapable 'facts';

1. Space, or shall we call it 'nothingness' goes on and on and on.... etc. Forever. In all imaginable directions, (and possibly some unimaginable ones too).
2. Time, or again we shall call it the passing of every history, ever, ever.. etc. has gone on and will go on forever.

We can get hung up about the meaning and structure of time; our time as we know and use it is a wholy man-made commodity. We use it to guage a trail back to some event, or to assess the path towards some event that we have not yet realised. Take Hawking's and Penrose's conclusion that the Big Bang was born out of a Singularity, of infinite density and infinitely small, and that this in some way became unstable and decided to pop; you must conclude from this that there is an inference to a state of existence BEFORE the Big Bang happened!

So, our Universe has at least some form of boundary, beyond which there will be nothingness until the next universe is reached. This may be a long way away, otherwise there would be gravitation attraction and merging taking place. Perhaps this does take place, and we just haven't experience such an event in our known history. But the BIG picture in my mind is of a vast and never-ending arena within which the same type of events, (Big Bangs), continuously occur. If you could see a speeded up film of this from say 'God's' viewpoint, it would resemble a mud-flat in Iceland, boiling all the time with new universes and old ones popping out of existence. This situation will have been around for ever (in time) and stretches forever (in 'space'). I think.
 
Snowy said:
This interesting topic just caught my eye, since little else happening on the forum for a MR owner.
.
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I believe there is plenty happening at the moment, what issues do you have with the CAM ?
 
Sorry Channel Hopper, feels like I touched a nerve there?

Nothing wrong with my CAM, the MR has been great since I got it. I just mean that without a Dreambox or Dragon or the latest version of card, (which I don't blame anybody for being cautious of), the sat providers have all but closed the game down. Last Night I saw a bit of D+ on Astra1 again; that was great, but today it's down I see.

I have a great dish, (Toroidal 90), with 5 LNBs, but not much to look at. That's all.

Great Forum though.
 
Snowy said:
Sorry Channel Hopper, feels like I touched a nerve there?
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Not at all, I think your location has more to do with it . Have you tried getting 30 West ?
 
Snowy said:
This interesting topic just caught my eye, since little else happening on the forum for a MR owner.

Sounds lke JTA is clued up, or as much as anyone who delves into this kind of thins can be. Even Prof Hawking gets it wrong sometimes! JTAs description is similar to my own 'belief', as I'm no expert on the technical level. What I imagine is that the Universe, (as in the one that our Milky Way and other galaxies exists), is only one of many. One of many that is that either exist now, or have existed in the past. If you agree on the definition of infinity, then there are some inescapable 'facts';

1. Space, or shall we call it 'nothingness' goes on and on and on.... etc. Forever. In all imaginable directions, (and possibly some unimaginable ones too).
2. Time, or again we shall call it the passing of every history, ever, ever.. etc. has gone on and will go on forever.

We can get hung up about the meaning and structure of time; our time as we know and use it is a wholy man-made commodity. We use it to guage a trail back to some event, or to assess the path towards some event that we have not yet realised. Take Hawking's and Penrose's conclusion that the Big Bang was born out of a Singularity, of infinite density and infinitely small, and that this in some way became unstable and decided to pop; you must conclude from this that there is an inference to a state of existence BEFORE the Big Bang happened!

So, our Universe has at least some form of boundary, beyond which there will be nothingness until the next universe is reached. This may be a long way away, otherwise there would be gravitation attraction and merging taking place. Perhaps this does take place, and we just haven't experience such an event in our known history. But the BIG picture in my mind is of a vast and never-ending arena within which the same type of events, (Big Bangs), continuously occur. If you could see a speeded up film of this from say 'God's' viewpoint, it would resemble a mud-flat in Iceland, boiling all the time with new universes and old ones popping out of existence. This situation will have been around for ever (in time) and stretches forever (in 'space'). I think.
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That made sense.
 
What about Guinness?
 
Wot, you mean what was before Guinness? Dandilion and Burdock, m8.
 
Saturlight, if that made sense to you I think you must be as mad as me!


Channel, Hopper, I wish I caould see 30W. My Highland Scottish back wall facing South is all but surrounded by trees; only enough view to get from 28E to about 10W I think.

Is Hispasat really that good still? I might have to start a forest fire!
 
unfortunately, jta is wrong about almost everthing, but after carefully selecting some relevant links, which obviously were just ignored, quite frankly i just can't be bothered any more. If you lot prefer fantasy drivel, that's fine by me.
 
spiney said:
unfortunately, jta is wrong about almost everthing, but after carefully selecting some relevant links, which obviously were just ignored, quite frankly i just can't be bothered any more. If you lot prefer fantasy drivel, that's fine by me.
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again ? :-DOH!

by the way, I've got a video of what I told. It's from BBC 2's Horizon series, transmitted in 2004.........

I rest my case.
 
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