Bread Making Newbie

Lazarus · Aug 26, 2016

Yes, the Carr's flours are reputedly far and away the most reliable for easy gluten development.

Apparently our generic Strong White Flours are extremely inconsistent in that respect.

Personally, of the regular supermarket brands, Allinson's and Lidl's Belbake brand work well.

Often, I substitute a couple of ounces of white with a couple of ounces of Allinsons Seed and Grain Flours, for variety.

PaulR · Aug 26, 2016

Here in France by law you can only use flour, yeast and water (and salt I think). Nothing else otherwise it can't be called bread. So no oil. I put a couple of teaspoons of sugar in that wouldn't be allowed commercially.

The flour I buy here is quite literally the same as the local bakers use. There's one boulangerie in the village which produces absolutely wonderful bread. Light, good production of air holes, delicious and the same flour as I have from the same mill.

I think that the flour hook is the problem. The commercial mixers that I've seen on TV have two internal arms that pull the dough around stretching it back and forth. How is a single dough hook supposed to work? It can't work against anything except the weight of the dough. And that mostly gets hauled around with the hook. It seems that any stretching is internal to the glob of dough and doesn't get shared around enough. We used to have a bread making machine and although the paddles were quite small there were at least two of them to work the dough.

I'll probably make another one before we go home. I'll reduce the amount of water in the mix.

Lazarus · Aug 26, 2016

Don't forget the Lemon Juice ........

pgh13 · Aug 26, 2016

PaulR said:
The flour I buy here is quite literally the same as the local bakers use. There's one boulangerie in the village which produces absolutely wonderful bread. Light, good production of air holes, delicious and the same flour as I have from the same mill.

Had some good results with a Carrefour flour with seeds, and the Francine Brioche avec 5 cereals makes great, well - Brioche, but also used it to make Stollen last Christmas

battenfan · Aug 27, 2016

PaulR said:
I think that the flour hook is the problem. The commercial mixers that I've seen on TV have two internal arms that pull the dough around stretching it back and forth. How is a single dough hook supposed to work? It can't work against anything except the weight of the dough. And that mostly gets hauled around with the hook. It seems that any stretching is internal to the glob of dough and doesn't get shared around enough.

It's supposed to stretch the dough against the side of the bowl. See if there's an adjustment to get the hook downwards closer to the bowl. Commercial mixers I have seen (on the net, not in real life

) have a few millimeters gap along the hook's entire length.

I'm guessing a dough could take 15 minutes in a machine without being overworked. If it gets stickier you have probably overdone it.

Get a baking stone or steel, thermal mass helps the dough rise in the oven.

Use a spray bottle or put an ice cube in the oven to keep the crust from forming too early.

Use a steak thermometer to tell when it's done. 96-98C are figures I've seen.

I wish I could tell you I know what I'm talking about but mine usually fails too.

Although I'm getting the hang of making some great cinnamon rolls.

Lazarus · Aug 27, 2016

I wonder what @HB13DISH16 makes of all this!

...... started off confused .......

PaulR · Aug 27, 2016

battenfan said:
It's supposed to stretch the dough against the side of the bowl. See if there's an adjustment to get the hook downwards closer to the bowl.

No adjustment, it just clicks in and that's it. However I'm thinking that reducing the water slightly will make it stickier so that it gets pulled against the bowl better.

battenfan said:
Use a spray bottle or put an ice cube in the oven to keep the crust from forming too early.

I didn't mention it before but I always put a shallow bowl of water on the bottom shelf.

battenfan said:
I wish I could tell you I know what I'm talking about but mine usually fails too.

And I'm taking advice off you?

pgh13 · Aug 27, 2016

PaulR said:
Here in France by law you can only use flour, yeast and water (and salt I think). Nothing else otherwise it can't be called bread. So no oil. I put a couple of teaspoons of sugar in that wouldn't be allowed commercially.

That comment made me wonder; 'Are you adding salt?'

To quote from 'The Weekend Bakery'

'Next to its role in boosting the flavor of your bread, salt plays a role in tightening the gluten structure and adding strength to your dough. It helps the loaf to hold on to the carbon dioxide gas that is formed during fermentation, supporting good volume. Saltslows down fermentation and enzyme activity in dough.'

Archive7 · Aug 27, 2016

Lazarus said:
I wonder what @HB13DISH16 makes of all this!

...... started off confused .......

I am actually grateful for all the replies I received here already. I know I have put off using the machine for over four years because of lack of knowledge and experience, but I am going to try my luck next month.
It seems that the yeast type is the most important part of the ingredients.
I don't know if I can save any money by making my own bread, but I am fed up with paying the outrageous prices for a tiny roll during the week days as I like fresh bread and I never freeze bread. The shops sell a cheap bread loaf for the weekend and this is only because the price is controlled by the government.
If I make my own bread 3 times a week, then hopefully I don't have to go out to buy any bread, except buy the ingredients once a month.
There is another possible good reason why the bread doesn't come out good. The machine model is also important and Morphy Richards is well known for their bread making machines, but if I don't succeed, then I would look for a better machine, most probably more expensive.

PaulR · Aug 27, 2016

pgh13 said:
That comment made me wonder; 'Are you adding salt?'

Yes I am, three teaspoons for 1lb 8oz of flour. Two tsp of sugar and 5/8oz of fresh yeast. No oil - which I think optional anyway. It's difficult for me to say how much water I put in the first loaf as I then added more flour to dry it off. The second and third loaves had 3/4 pint (15 fl oz) of water. I may drop to 14 fl oz for the next one. Apologies if you only work in metric.

Archive7 · Aug 27, 2016

I found this video clip quite interesting and well presented.
The bread machine used has two paddles which seems to help make better bread and the shape of the loaf is more like what they sell in grocery stores.
The fun bit is reading the CC which is based on the Google Speech Recognition software.
I am wondering if an author of a Youtube clip can edit the CC and correct all the mistakes shown or not.
Almost all video clips I watched with CC have text mistakes so I am guessing that editing is probably not possible, unfortunately.

battenfan · Aug 28, 2016

I would try this autolyse recipe if I had the patience to wait a few days for the dough and didn't want to knead:

Code:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html

Archive7 · Aug 28, 2016

battenfan said:
I would try this autolyse recipe if I had the patience to wait a few days for the dough and didn't want to knead:

Code:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html

Thanks. Interesting.
My aim is make use of my all forgotten bread machine and make it spring to life, which means kneading is needed.
I went especially to the supermarket today to buy ingredients and would you believe it? they didn't have the bread flour and I didn't want to come home empty handed so I bought the All Purpose Flour. This is a really bad start on the project.

PaulR · Aug 28, 2016

All purpose flour will make really rubbish bread as it doesn't contain enough gluten. It'll be more like cake with a crumbly texture. It will also be heavy and not rise properly - or at least if it does rise it won't hold its shape.

Archive7 · Aug 29, 2016

PaulR said:
All purpose flour will make really rubbish bread as it doesn't contain enough gluten. It'll be more like cake with a crumbly texture. It will also be heavy and not rise properly - or at least if it does rise it won't hold its shape.

Thanks. I will use the AP flour for experimental purposes.
It is quite hard to find bread flour anywhere. I don't know why. Either it is in great demand or not produced as much as the other flours.

Archive7 · Aug 29, 2016

I did my first loaf of bread today
I used a basic program which lasted nearly 3 hours, and I used All Purpose Flour because I didn't find bread flour yesterday.
Anyway, it was a nice experience for me and the result weren't as bad as I expected and it did rise very nearly to the top.
I bought a new packet of dry yeast yesterday so maybe this helped.
The final loaf looked a bit soggy at the top but was too crispy at the bottom, presumably because it is nearer the heating element there.
My bread knife isn't sharp enough apparently and the cutting was a bit of a nightmare. Anyway, I did risk eating a slice of bread with jam on top and it wasn't too bad.
The work was a bit too much. It is not just a matter of putting the ingredients and walking away, certainly not for the first time.
I supervised the whole process which was a very long time and then I had to wait for the machine to cool down and clean all the bits and pieces.
I think I will not use the AP flour again and will try using the machine next time when I have bread flour.
Here are some photos at different stages.

Lazarus · Aug 29, 2016

Blimey, that's a jolly decent loaf, despite the generic flour.

As for yeast, I see in earlier posts that folk use a whole 7g sachet of dried yeast: I use less than 2g, as the Panasonic has a measuring spoon and filling it to the appropriate mark only takes about a quarter of a sachet. Use any more and it tends to get too airy with big holes in the loaf.

Contrary to received wisdom, the remains of the sachet don't seem to degrade and I use it up over the following couple of weeks.

PaulR · Aug 29, 2016

I agree, not bad looking at all. Possibly the AP flour that you have is stronger than expected.

Archive7 · Aug 29, 2016

Lazarus said:
As for yeast, I see in earlier posts that folk use a whole 7g sachet of dried yeast

Thanks. Beginners luck I suppose.
I bought a 500g dry yeast packet labeled Fleishmann Dry Yeast which was very cheap as two sachets cost the same.
I must put it in the fridge after opening and I suppose I can use it till it's expiry date. Made in Mexico.

Channel Hopper · Aug 29, 2016

HB13DISH16 said:
The final loaf looked a bit soggy at the top but was too crispy at the bottom, presumably because it is nearer the heating element there.
My bread knife isn't sharp enough apparently and the cutting was a bit of a nightmare. Anyway, I did risk eating a slice of bread with jam on top and it wasn't too bad.
The work was a bit too much. It is not just a matter of putting the ingredients and walking away, certainly not for the first time.
I supervised the whole process which was a very long time and then I had to wait for the machine to cool down and clean all the bits and pieces.

Most of the above is key to why the bread maker is sitting back in its box on the shelf. I never calculated the electricity required to make one loaf buut the raw ingredients alone put making something other than a really special loaf a non-starter, in particular the cleaning afterwards.

The local Tesco has a built in bakery and all loaves at the end of the day are reduced to sell, with a large olive ciabatta or 100% rye going out the door at 50p.

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