2012 - Whats the best blind search and sensitive receiver on sale?

Vipersan

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Tivù said:
Keep the test results coming VS: We're off to France tomorrow for a fortnight, so my own putative purchase can wait. M3 is harder to get than F3, so the F3 is the most likely purchase.

bonnes vacances Gordon ...
I'll test the F3 a bit more with regard to tuner gain ..on pre-defined settings ..when I have time ..
;)
 

Vipersan

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...Ok ..further to my first test with the F3 looped from the F15...
I didn't think the test was fair ..since it has been reported by Pete that the F15 acts to surpress some of the signal to second looped box ..
So In fairness to the F3 I connected it directly to the lnb ..but through the same 16 way cascade Diseqc 1.1 switch the F15 has to use ..
The results were much better ..but sill less than the F15 (as expected) but does allow the F3 to perform as well as its tuner can..
Same satellite ..same time taken to complete a full blindscan..
but now reports 120 channels found ..
So I can only conclude that the F3 used as a primary box in a system performs reasonably well...
Certainly for a nice addition for £50
The menu change responses to remote control presses are more sluggish than I would like ..so patience required during setup.
I'll test it driving a usals motor this evening ..in ku
rgds
VS
 

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Excellent, VS: I'm not going to DX, but do like the idea of a fast Blind Scan and user friendly S2 Multi-Sat performance.
 

digi247

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@VS

Not too sure if you want to open up your newly purchased acquisition but i would be curious as to what the tuner is inside the F3, From having a quick scan around the net it appears that the M3 uses a sharp tuner which is used in the Technomate TM500/600 and a few others and they have a pretty good lock thresh hold.

Regards
 

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I initially favoured the M3, but supply is scarce in UK.

Maybe the one fleabay seller will put the price down again once he's stocked up?
 

Vipersan

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digi247 said:
@VS

Not too sure if you want to open up your newly purchased acquisition but i would be curious as to what the tuner is inside the F3, From having a quick scan around the net it appears that the M3 uses a sharp tuner which is used in the Technomate TM500/600 and a few others and they have a pretty good lock thresh hold.

Regards

Crafty burgers have placed a seal over one of the screws ..so not happy about breaking it so soon after purchase ..
It would void any warranty ..
Picture quality is pretty good on HD though the black level may need adjustment on a plasma or lcd to make this optimal ..
SD upscaling leaves a bit to be desired ..but acceptable ..
rgds
VS
 

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Vipersan said:
Crafty buggers have placed a seal over one of the screws ..so not happy about breaking it so soon after purchase ..
It would void any warranty.
rgdsVS

You could try heat the label up with a hair dryer to loosen it without any damage ?

interesting reading, when I get around to buying a new box I will get the f15 over these openbox rebadged receivers.
 

Vipersan

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Ok ..Decided to try Nilesat @ 7W for the first ku scan ..
The less gaps (unused transponders ) the quicker the scan will complete.
I scanned for TV only fta and encrypted.
The scan completed in 7 minutes 50 seconds ..and this includes the time taken to move the TD110 into position.
A total of 560 TV channels were input ..and these no doubt included some of the stronger channels from 8 west (unavoidable on blindscan)

What I was pleased about was the F3s ability to stack switch and motor just like its big brother the OpenboxS9HD
So :- SkyboxF3 Receiver > 16 port cascade diseqc 1.1 switch using port 3 > usals darkmotor >TD110 (inverto black ultra single)
rgds
VS
 

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Ah, now that's useful, re. the stacking.

Got some pennies, so might get one even if my Foxsat doesn't sell.
 

Vipersan

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Ok ..this is odd yet interesting..
We all know that when it comes to blindscan ..there is no such thing as 'one size fits all'..
Well there appears to be two options for blindscan on the F3
The first is labelled 'Blindscan' ...then there is 'preset scan' and finally another option not even indicated in the crappy little manual supplied with the box ..
'Accurate scan'
Which appears to be a more intense search ..or at least ..a different approach to scanning.
I chose NSS12 at 57 East for this experiment which is on port 1 of the 16 way diseqc 1.1 switch ..and my second usals motor ~ TD88 ..
some channels can be tricky for me with this smaller dish ..
So ..I performed 3 passes in 'blindscan' mode ..and 3 passes in 'accurate scan' mode ..
The results are a little odd but they are exactly as they happened..

Pass 1 'blindscan mode' Nothing found
Pass 2 'blindscan mode' Asia TV found
Pass 3 'blindscan mode' Asia TV & Silemani found

Pass 1 'Accurate scan mode' Duhok & Mosul found
Pass 2 'Accurate scan mode' Duhok & Mosul found
Pass 3 'Accurate scan mode' Duhok & Mosul found

You will note that in accurate mode that Asia TV was _never_ logged
and in Blindscan mode Duhok & Mosul were _never_ logged
Silemani is another story ..as this is the weakest and most variable for me.
What it does indicate is that the box software creators ..have provided a second ..possibly more intense search option which takes longer ..but perhaps with a different approach resulting in narrower bandwidth channels ( LSR )being logged ..but wider bandwidth (HSR) channels possibly ignored if they are borderline and inconsistent..
It also indicates that to have the best chance of grabbing ALL channels in blindscan..it may be neccessary to make two passes ..one in each mode.

It may even be that someone has picked up my suggestion unknowingly of course.. re low bit rate signals..that you have to hold the frequency for a while whilst the signal builds and stabalizes..
Well done to the F3 if this is the case
;)
rgds
VS

..and finally ...I managed to log in Qellat TV 11174 V
tp MEV4

Qellat TV
DVB-S2
MPEG-4
1250-3/4
8PSK

By inputting the details manually ..and scanning 5 times using preset scan ..
This being the most variable and weakest of all ..and extreme LSR like Silemani
 

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I've had the F3 unit now for almost 2 weeks and I find it an excellent and fast blind scanner which I have on my c band feed. However, in comparison to my azbox, I find tuner sensitivity a bit lacking. For example, yesterday I scanned in 4 Nascar feeds on Amc 9 at 83w on both receivers, the azbox showed 82% signal quality and the F3 only 10% and no picture. Here's a pic:
 

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Vipersan said:
Decided to try Nilesat @ 7W for the first ku scan [...] these no doubt included some of the stronger channels from 8 west (unavoidable on blindscan)
Umm, no. Not with the Vu+ Uno or Ultimo, or Xtrend 9x00 along with the latest Vix image.
 

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Huevos said:
Umm, no. Not with the Vu+ Uno or Ultimo, or Xtrend 9x00 along with the latest Vix image.

I know you love your VU boxes Huevos ...but you know as well as I do true blind scanning _without_ filters built into the firmware ..and avoiding pulling channels from adjacent satellites..is impossible ..
The VIX image takes care of this I'm sure ..but scanning and storing just what the tuner 'sees' is hardware blindscanning without filtering ..and its all that most set top boxes are capable of ..
Tuners are not intelligent and just process what comes down the aerial ...or in this case ..the lnb feed.
Clever processing or filtering will indeed avoid unwanted signals ..but this has to be written into software..if required.
..but then its a case of ..what do you expect for £50 ...and I was referring to this box and others like it ...specifically.
rgds
VS
 

Vipersan

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Costactc said:
I've had the F3 unit now for almost 2 weeks and I find it an excellent and fast blind scanner which I have on my c band feed. However, in comparison to my azbox, I find tuner sensitivity a bit lacking. For example, yesterday I scanned in 4 Nascar feeds on Amc 9 at 83w on both receivers, the azbox showed 82% signal quality and the F3 only 10% and no picture. Here's a pic:

Thanks for the internals pic Costa ..
It looks very much like the tuner being self contained could probably desoldered and swapped for the Sharp version without too much hassle ...assuming it was available to purchase seperately that is.
Not as easy to do as a plug in module ..but the firmware would most likely accomodate it without complaint ..
This again assumes its pin compatible of course.
Many Tvs are constructed in this way ..and swapping tuners isn't a problem..
The one pcb is built to take a variety of tuners from various manufactures..and indeed many models are sold with the same mainboard ..and different tuners fitted at manufacture.
The firmware automatically indentifying and accomodating the variations.
rgds
VS
 

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Vipersan said:
its a case of ..what do you expect for £50
The thing that makes Linux boxes great is the bit that you don't pay for, the open source software, which makes me wonder why more manufacturers don't go down that route.
 

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Huevos said:
The thing that makes Linux boxes great is the bit that you don't pay for, the open source software, which makes me wonder why more manufacturers don't go down that route.

Huevos, how are you getting on with the blindscan plugin for the vu+ ?

Have you perfected it or still finding bugs in the software.
 

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wod said:
Huevos, how are you getting on with the blindscan plugin for the vu+ ?

Have you perfected it or still finding bugs in the software.
Works fine in the Vu+ Uno, Ultimo, and Xtrend/Clarke-Tech ET9x00. No bugs that I know of, and no crashes. And if there were any reported bug it could be sorted out pretty fast. The drivers are closed source though, each belonging to its respective manufacturer. So the parts that are out of the hands of the plugin writer are the hardware and the driver. The drivers are written for Ku band only but the plugin sidesteps that by doing some maths on the driver output before handing it over for the service scan. It works great for feed hunting (especially so because of the filtering) but not so good for DX or where there are extra low SR channels very close to one another.
 

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It seems to work for me (the blind scan plug in on the Uno) but I tried blind scanning 3E the other day and, although it found frequencies to scan, it wouldn't actually scan the channels in. I did, however, just about managed to scan in Al Jazeera Sport on 12654H - it's quite weak here though.

Does it look for "peaks" in the spectrum and then identifies the frequencies to scan or...?

Also, is it possible to write some sort of spectrum analyzer plug-in? Not necessarily real time but just a quick representation of a satellite.
 

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Captain Jack said:
It seems to work for me (the blind scan plug in on the Uno) but I tried blind scanning 3E the other day and, although it found frequencies to scan, it wouldn't actually scan the channels in.
CJ, it is a two step process. The first step looks for transponder parameters and returns them to the plugin. Those transponders can be right down in the noise way below the lock limit. Second step is the plugin hands a list of those transponders over for a regular search for services (which is identical to doing a manual scan from satellites.xml). The filtering happens between steps 1 & 2 so only wanted transponders are searched for channels.

I think the Openboxes do a 2 step scan like this too, which is why they are so fast compared to conventional blind scan receivers which step slowly through every frequency and search for channels at the that time.

No to the spectrum. To do a spectrum you need to compare the peaks to the baseline and I doubt there is hardware to measure the baseline, and even if there were you would need that to be written into the driver and the driver is closed source. TBH, step 1 is pretty fast and accurate as long as there is a reasonable signal level, but not so good for stuff right down in the noise. Oh and lastly you still get a spectrum trace anyway even if you are not pointing at a satellite, it's just that this corresponds with the peaks and troughs that are native to the LNB amplification circuits. What I'm really getting at is spectrum is not necessarily as useful as people who don't have it might think when it comes to channel hunting. Sometimes there is a big peak with nothing on it, and other times the spectrum is almost flat and blind search finds channels.
 

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Vipersan said:
Thanks for the internals pic Costa ..
It looks very much like the tuner being self contained could probably desoldered and swapped for the Sharp version without too much hassle ...assuming it was available to purchase seperately that is.
Not as easy to do as a plug in module ..but the firmware would most likely accomodate it without complaint ..
This again assumes its pin compatible of course.
Many Tvs are constructed in this way ..and swapping tuners isn't a problem..
The one pcb is built to take a variety of tuners from various manufactures..and indeed many models are sold with the same mainboard ..and different tuners fitted at manufacture.
The firmware automatically indentifying and accomodating the variations.
rgds
VS

hi --
i have here the M3 skybox -- since the weekend - (bought before the price increase l.o.l )
not had much spare time to play around with it yet -- not sure how the claimed , more sensitive tuner will compare to the F3 but a test on startimes t.p.s last night shows it to fall slightly short of my spiderbox on those channels -- may get time to play more this evening ---- so far though i think its a good box for such a cheap price
regards nelson.b.
 
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