3pm EPL Footie games and the law ?

[4685simon]

I've been searching the web to find out weather or not it's illegal to watch 3pm EPL Footie games at home through a foreign subsciption, (ie ART, Sky Italia) but i'm still a little confused on where the law stands.

Am I within the law to watch the games at home, with a legit subscription?

Thanks in advance

Simon

 

[Lazarus]

The lack of clarity comes when considering the phrase "........ a legit subscription..........."

Legit in the Country of issue and within the Terms of the Contract, yes.

Anything else is a convoluted debate, but suffice it to say that very little attention seems to be paid to individual users as the returns on enforcement effort are simply not worth it. On the other hand, "public performance" is somewhat topical and subject to testing in the Courts - but not to a clear cut resolution.

Even if it were unequivocally wrong, the offence(s) would be Civil, not Criminal and it is difficult to see what sanction could be imposed (or how) against individual domestic transgressors.

Indeed, the best way is to make the supply and distribution of cards as secure and tight as possible. BSkyB are getting better at this, yet still haven't made great inroads into preventing use of Sky Sports (UK) outside the UK.

They are, however, getting more interested in developing ways to prevent Card Sharing.


Bottom line: You won't get a meaningful YES or No answer from a Forum!

 

[4685simon]

Thanks for the reply. it seems to be a very touchy area this, almost as if there's no real clarity as to what is legal and what isn't?

 

[Lazarus]

Well there are many factors to consider:

1. The fact that "any revenue is good revenue" - so the will of Package Providers to clampdown without external pressure might be not very strong

2. The Legal issues themselves are very complex, including as they do considerations of Copyright, acquired Broadcasting Rights, National Law in all the Countries where there are interested parties, European Law, the "Spirit" of the EC etc.

3. The costs of pursuing remedies

I'm sure others can add more .................

 

[4685simon]

Yeah cheers for the advice i'll take it onboard. I'm a little sceptical of setting up a motorised system for the aformentioned Football, but at the same time I'm not willing to keep paying Sky fortunes every year, when there seems to be better packages out there for one off costs! As for the legality of it all I get the feeling that as an individual watching at home I'm 'Reasonably Safe' from being prosecuted, but there is no guarentees that someone won't knock on my door.

 

[rolfw]

The guys who supply kit to pubs are keen to link public use and private use into the same issue, but in real terms and as Tivu says, if you are using it for your own private viewing, you are pretty safe and nobody is going to bother too much about you. Whether it is cheaper than Sky UK is another matter, as a Sky Italia subscription (in my opinion the best one) bought off the web is probably no less and possibly much more, but of course does have the advantage of 3PM football and the English commentary.

If the European court were to rule against the Premier league in the upcoming cases, you could guarantee that the English commentary would be the first casualty on the non UK packages, as would possibly the live 3pm matches.

 

[bigtee]

Technically at the moment and until the European Court decision in the Karen Murphy case it is illegal to watch English Premier League football in the UK via any means that does not involve Sly (or now ESPN) --- subject to the defence of lack of dishonesty. This is one of the lesser known effects of the English decisions in the Karen Murphy case.

The only consolation is that Sly/EPL have not so far, as far as we know, been going after private users of foreign subscription cards.

 

[las]

when will this case be finished?


jim

 

[Topper]

when will this case be finished?


jim

How long is a piece of string?

 

[Lazarus]

How long is a piece of string?

Approximately six inches shorter than required.

 

[ruthlessly]

bigtree - I am not convinced that the courts have ruled that individuals using 'foreign' cards in their living room are acting illegally. I don't believe that the courts had the intention of criminalising individuals for buying a 'foreign' card. Of course, either way, the reality is that someone sitting at home watching Premiere or whatever is simply not on the radar.

 

[bigtee]

Here is the relevant legislation:

Offence of fraudulently receiving programmes

(1) A person who dishonestly receives a programme included in a broadcasting or cable programme service provided from a place in the United Kingdom with intent to avoid payment of any charge applicable to the reception of the programme commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

What the court said is that reception/viewing of EPL football in the UK is viewing Sly/EPL transmission ---- even when you are watching it on Nova, etc because, according to the court, the transmission originates in the UK; that under UK law, the only way to receive/watch the transmission legally is by subscription to Sly (logically will include defunct Setanta and now ESPN); that subscribing to a foreign service like Nova etc is an unlawful circumvention of the legally necessary/compulsory subscription to Sly (etc).

Now, reception/transmission in that context is neutral i.e. not based on whether received in the home or in a pub; the Act refers to "a person"; Mrs Murphy was prosecuted as "a person" not as "a publican". The ruling made by the court in the Karen Murphy case applies to "a person" not to "a publican".

As I said before, the only thing is that at the moment Sly have so far only been going after publicans. Legally, they can go after any person under the UK decision in the Murphy case unless it is overturned.

 

[Low Profile]

You'd like to think it would be easily overturned, after all, 3pm kick offs aren't included in any UK broadcasting service.
It's not as though an applicable tariff is being avoided - as there is no applicable tariff.
I'm sure the Greek & Czech communities living in the UK will be up in arms at not being allowed to watch this coverage in their own language (which up until now European law suggested was their entitlement).

 

[bigtee]

Now that's interesting and leads me to deal with some of the practical side of things (in addition to the technical above). These are some of the ramifications of the Murphy case as it stands presently - unless it is overturned either by ECJ or by UK Court of Appeal or Supreme Court.

It is not illegal to use a foreign card per se (e.g. Nova) in the UK; for example it can be used legitimately to receive programmes originating in Greece or anywhere outside the UK. However if you use the very same foreign card (Nova etc) to watch English Premier League football certainly (and perhaps any programme originating in the UK the reception of which a UK provider charges for), then you are committing an offence --- as long as you know/should know that you should be subscribing to Sly/the UK provider for the EPL/programme. In a way, I am doing a disservice to all who read this post because they will not be able to raise the defence of "lack of dishonesty" since they wll/should now know that the "law" is that they should be subscribing to Sly/the English provider.

Now here is a thing: you have a Nova FULL package card here in the UK ----- on that card you can watch say a Spanish Liga match, a French league match; however, if the programme following after that is an English Premiership League match, and you are a "law-abiding" citizen, you must either change channels and not watch the EPL match, switch to Sly/ESPN for the English match; whatever you do, don't watch the EPL match on the Nova card.

One may say who'll catch me in my living room? True. But it is still an offence. The same way the chap who is doing 60mph in a 40mph zone while there is no camera or police is committing an offence.

A small conundrum: last week or so Chelsea played Inter in Milan; if you watched that on your Nova etc card it would have been perfectly legal; next week Chelsea play Inter in the return leg in London (being screened by Sly) --- if you watch that on the same Nova card, you would be committing an offence. :toke:

 

[rolfw]

Not quite correct there bigtee, you are actually breaking the terms and conditions of the Nova card by using it in the UK in the first place and if you watch anything on that service for which a UK provider holds the area copyright, whether it be Spanish or Italian football, American series, or a service like 3pm football, for which the copyright owner has excluded the UK from the rights, you are breaking copyright law.

But all of this is nit picking, the real bones of this action is the blatant flaunting of the use of these cards in Licensed premises, using domestic rate cards for public showing. The result of this, may be that it eventually becomes impossible to buy one of these cards in the UK.

 

[bigtee]

Deleted double-post!

 

[bigtee]

Nope; what I stated is accurate in law.

The breaking of Nova's terms and conditions is in truth a red herring. Go and read the cases (Murphy, QV Leisure etc) you will see that Sly/EPL etc do not make an issue of the breach of Nova's terms and conditions. Firstly, it has nothing to do with the criminality or otherwise of the use of the card. Secondly, in the case of Karen Murphy she bought the card from a middleman and it will be difficult if not impossible for Nova to sue her for breach of contract --- which is all the so-called "breach of terms and conditions" is. Third, who says that a court of law will necessarily uphold Nova's (or for that matter Sly's) "terms and conditions" restricting otherwise lawful use of a card? I can think of a number of legal arguments to circumvent it.

With respect to Spanish Liga, French league etc, it is irrelevant under s.297 that Sly has the UK rights ---- a person who watches it in the UK with a foreign card is not committing an offence insofar as the "transmission" does not "originate" in the UK.

Interestingly, below is what the minister responsible for the issue in 2006 said in a written answer to a parliamentary question:

J‘It is not illegal for a pub/publican to subscribe to a
foreign satellite channel as opposed to BS£yB and
as the DTI have stated nor is it illegal to import
decoder cards from the European Union. However,
the legality of screening live UK football games
carried on that channel depends on how the
copyright to those games was sold/distributed
(ie whether the foreign channel purchased the
rights legally)’.

 

[Zorba]

Referring to your example of the Chelsea- Inter match, this is Champions League. Do the same rules apply? Or only when Sky sports are showing it ? Because when ITV broadcast Champions league ,it's free to air so anybody can watch it ,anywhere.

 

[bigtee]

Referring to your example of the Chelsea- Inter match, this is Champions League. Do the same rules apply? Or only when Sky sports are showing it ? Because when ITV broadcast Champions league ,it's free to air so anybody can watch it ,anywhere.

The relevant conditions are that: (a) the programme/transmission "originates" in the UK; (b) there is a charge applicable for the reception of the programme/transmission.

So:
1. If the transmission is FTA as on ITV or Five (several examples tonight), you cannot be committing an offence since you are not circumventing any "charge applicable".

2. The law does apply to Champions league (e.g. Chelsea v Inter) IF the transmission originates in the UK (Stamford Bridge) and there is a charge in the UK (S£y) for the reception of the programme.

Hope that helps.

PS It's just as well that this website is "open source" on all things satellite ---- otherwise you can imagine how much might be charged professionally for providing a legal opinion on these things.

 

[rolfw]

Of course EPL won't make an issue of Nova's T&Cs, it isn't anything to do with them and Nova won't sue them, but they can legitimately switch off the card.

The whole aspect of bringing the domestic user into the frame is the red herring, the real issue is the public screening of the EPL matches using anything other than a commercial subscription from the UK rights holders. If what the minister said was the definitive answer, then this case would not be ongoing.

Why don't we just wait for the judgement.