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Advice on setup

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My Satellite Setup
WaveFrontier Torodial T-90, Prodelin 1184 1.8 m, Invacom 0.3 Single Universal LNB, 8 regular LNBs, DM500-S, various switches
My Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#1
Hi everybody.

I'm a new user on this forum. I've been browsing the forum for a while, but this is my first post.

I recently installed a Prodelin 1184, 1.8 meter offset dish for the purpose of receiving channels from Astra 2D (i.e. BBC, ITV etc.) in Copenhagen, Denmark at 55º 40' N, 12º 35' E.

I bought the dish cheap second hand and I originally anticipated using the included feedhorn along with a quattro C120 flange LNB from Invacom. But when we installed the dish, I found that the holes in the circle of the included feed horn wouldn't fit a regular C120 flange (the lnb-connecting end of my feed horn has 6 holes evenly spaced on a circle with a 44 mm diameter and that somehow doesn't fit the average C120 :confused).

So what we did was to take a regular quattro Invacom LNB (i.e. no C120) and try to fit this into the 22 mm clamp. After some creative problem solving we managed to get the LNB fitted and I was able to align the dish to the Astra 2D satellite.

I was mostly interested in optimising the installation for transponder 10.891 H (ITV etc.) as I’ve been told that this is one of the most difficult transponders to receive in Denmark. After hours of fine-tuning, I was able to get the transponder to a BER reading of 2.4 * 10 -2 and a MER reading of 7-8. The picture looked fine with no mosaic or break ups.

However, the figures mentioned above does not provide me with significant signal reserve to deliver a stable picture 24/7 in most weather conditions (it often rains in Denmark these days). I figured I could and probably would get much more out of the dish, if I could use a feed horn with a C120 lnb.

Well, I contacted the Prodelin representative in the US to hear if they had other feed horns or maybe an adapter available. They forwarded my request to some very nice and helpful people at their German representative. He explained to me that the feed horn I had was the only one from Prodelin for my intents and purposes. He told me that I would in fact be able to use it with a flange LNB, if I bought one from SMW. He explained that the Quattro-LNB from SMW would fit the original Prodelin feed horn I have.

However, the feed horn looks a bit dirty and has some wear from saltwater etc. (i.e. the big front cover is only partly transparent). I also have some concern that the noise figure on the SMW LNB is specified to be as high as 0.9 (!!!).

So I’m thinking that I might get a much better result from buying an Andrew universal offset feed horn and use this with a C120 LNB from Invacom.

Since this is fringe reception and every little db counts, I really would like some advice from you expoert-guys before I purchase anything.
Which setup would you recommend me (and why):

1) The setup with the original (partly used) feed horn from Prodelin and a SMW LNB with a noise figure of 0.9

– or -

2) An Andrews universal feed horn with a 0.3 db LNB from Invacom?

- Or do you recommend something completely different?

Please let me know your thoughts and also if you reckon this would actually improve my BER and MER readings on the meter. I would like the BER to go as low as 1 * 10 -5 and the MER to go to the low 20s.

Thank you in advance for any help or suggestions.

Regards,
Lars
 

patmos

Regular Member
Messages
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2
My Satellite Setup
STRONG SRT-4910+,SunRay4HDse,TBS5922, 2.4M P.F Apstar7(76.5 DEGE), 120cm dish PAS 10 Ku( 68.5 DEGE),3.0M Mesh Motorised dish on arc (AM44 (11DEGW) to AM33(96.5 DEGE),150 cm dish W3C(16 DeG E)+ side LNB Ew2A(10 DEGE),90cm W4/W7 (36 DEGE)
My Location
Mauritius
#2
Please check this page _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin_technical_docs.html for technical documents. You have three KU 1.8 dish. One has f/d= 0.8, all others have 0.6.
1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.85.76".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0321.pdf"]TD0321 1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.62.95".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0162.pdf"]TD0162 1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.65.23".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0163.pdf"]TD0163
The feed horn drawings also are there.Anybody knows what is the dimension for C120. May be there is an adapter/transition for this.It would have nice to integrate your LNB to the original feedhorn.
 

geoffrey

Regular Member
Messages
131
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20
Location
Zichron Yaacov
My Satellite Setup
2.4M ChannelMaster Offset with Smart Titanium TQS LNB. LG SMART TV with SuperTrack V-Box 2 on ChannelMaster 1.2M Offset. TBS5925 tuner with EBSPro on Windows 10 laptop. Satlook Digital NIT.
My Location
Israel
#3
Swedish Microwave do a C120 to C120 adapter.

_http://www.smw.se/res/pdf/feedhorn.pdf

The feed may have so called WR75 spacing for the holes. This is an arrangement based on a trapezium shaped layout for the holes so that the lnb can only be fitted in one position. If you try the Invacom in different positions (rotate it round one hole at a time) you may find that you can get it to fit. If not then the SMW adapter should work.
 
Messages
5
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My Satellite Setup
WaveFrontier Torodial T-90, Prodelin 1184 1.8 m, Invacom 0.3 Single Universal LNB, 8 regular LNBs, DM500-S, various switches
My Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#4
geoffrey said:
The feed may have so called WR75 spacing for the holes. This is an arrangement based on a trapezium shaped layout for the holes so that the lnb can only be fitted in one position. If you try the Invacom in different positions (rotate it round one hole at a time) you may find that you can get it to fit. If not then the SMW adapter should work.
No, the holes are evenly spaced around a normal circle, but this circle is smaller than the circle on the lnb - and there are only 6 holes on the feed. The SMW adapter might do the trick, but what troubles me is that they also have a socalled "Prodelin adapter". Normal I would think that this is what I need, but that thing converts to a square connector with 4 holes - and that doesn't fit the C120 either. Maybe a "Prodelin Adapter" and a "C120 adapter" in connection is the thing?

To the other poster, asking me if this was a setup with a 39, 50 or 51 degree feed horn. I do not know this yet, but I will go later today to the dish and measure the arm holding the feed. I will let you know my findings.

It seems that there's a consensuns that it's better to to use the original feed horn than a universal feed horn (even though the cap on the original feedhorn shows some wear). Is this correct?

Also, I would like to have some feedback from anyone who knows about the SMW Quattro LNB. Is the noise figure really 0.9 ? It seems to be so much more than the average 0.3 on Invacom - in fact, I just noticed an LNB with a noise figure as low as 0.1 (!). I don't understand this, as it seems that the product line of SMW seems to be aimed at professionals - why do these products have worse specs than the average consumer product?

Regards
 

Llew

cerca trova...
Staff member
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My Satellite Setup
Triple Dragon, Dreambox 8000, Echostar AD3000ip, TBS6522,6925,6983 PCie cards.
Gibertini 1.25m motorised dish driven by the AD3000, with either Inverto BU Quad or Norsat / XMW Ka LNBs . SMW 1.05m + 3 other dishes. Speccy: Promax HD Ranger+
My Location
The Flatlands of East Anglia
#5
LarsV said:
Also, I would like to have some feedback from anyone who knows about the SMW Quattro LNB. Is the noise figure really 0.9 ? It seems to be so much more than the average 0.3 on Invacom - in fact, I just noticed an LNB with a noise figure as low as 0.1 (!). I don't understand this, as it seems that the product line of SMW seems to be aimed at professionals - why do these products have worse specs than the average consumer product?

Regards
Perhaps they are still using the noise figure meter (HP8907:cool: that they used for their earlier LNB testing?

This had an instrument uncertainty of +/- 0.3dB, well out of accuracy for testing to low N/Fs.

Maybe the quoted figure of later LNBs is much lower in practice? (only conjecture).

Llew
 
Messages
5
Likes
0
My Satellite Setup
WaveFrontier Torodial T-90, Prodelin 1184 1.8 m, Invacom 0.3 Single Universal LNB, 8 regular LNBs, DM500-S, various switches
My Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#6
patmos said:
Please check this page _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin_technical_docs.html for technical documents. You have three KU 1.8 dish. One has f/d= 0.8, all others have 0.6.
1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.85.76".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0321.pdf"]TD0321 1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.62.95".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0162.pdf"]TD0162 1.8 meterKuRX/TX0.65.23".25" _http://www.tripointglobal.com/Prodelin/Technical_Docs/feed_location_drawings/td0163.pdf"]TD0163
The feed horn drawings also are there.Anybody knows what is the dimension for C120. May be there is an adapter/transition for this.It would have nice to integrate your LNB to the original feedhorn.
Hi.

I've checked the documents and measure the length of the line drawn as "A" in the documents. It's a little bit hard to tell whether I've got the 50 degrees feed horn or the 51 degrees feed horn, but it's definetely not the 39 degrees. My best bet would be 50 degrees as outlined in document td0162. Can anyone recommend a good (the best) feedhorn to replace my existing? - And one that will actually fit a regular C120-flange LNB?

Best regards
 

Likvid

ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
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My Location
Stockholm, Sweden
#7
Nah they have dropped all noise measurements these days and their LNBs comes packaged only as typical NF printed.

I guess it took too much time to measure each LNB like the old days.

Llew said:
Perhaps they are still using the noise figure meter (HP8907:cool: that they used for their earlier LNB testing?

This had an instrument uncertainty of +/- 0.3dB, well out of accuracy for testing to low N/Fs.

Maybe the quoted figure of later LNBs is much lower in practice? (only conjecture).

Llew
 

Likvid

ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
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My Location
Stockholm, Sweden
#8
SMW sells a Prodelin adapter which is the exact thing you need.

They even call it Prodelin adapter plate or something.

LarsV said:
Hi.

I've checked the documents and measure the length of the line drawn as "A" in the documents. It's a little bit hard to tell whether I've got the 50 degrees feed horn or the 51 degrees feed horn, but it's definetely not the 39 degrees. My best bet would be 50 degrees as outlined in document td0162. Can anyone recommend a good (the best) feedhorn to replace my existing? - And one that will actually fit a regular C120-flange LNB?

Best regards
 

Likvid

ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
Messages
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My Location
Stockholm, Sweden
#9
LarsV said:
Also, I would like to have some feedback from anyone who knows about the SMW Quattro LNB. Is the noise figure really 0.9 ? It seems to be so much more than the average 0.3 on Invacom - in fact, I just noticed an LNB with a noise figure as low as 0.1 (!). I don't understand this, as it seems that the product line of SMW seems to be aimed at professionals - why do these products have worse specs than the average consumer product?

Regards
Nah, the SMW LNBs vary sample to sample.

I have two brand new SMWs laying around here, the second sample is not good at all, it's even worse than any LNB i ever had.

The first sample is on the same level as the Invacom.

But nothing beats the Inverto, Inverto is one hell of a performer.

Also SMW LNBs are old school WR75 LNBs, you only have use for them with a polarizer which will add another 0.3dB noise or a C/KU-band setup with a Corotor or similar.

It's mostly cable stations, broadcasters that buy SMWs as they use OMTs with their LNBs.
 

Llew

cerca trova...
Staff member
Messages
14,150
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My Satellite Setup
Triple Dragon, Dreambox 8000, Echostar AD3000ip, TBS6522,6925,6983 PCie cards.
Gibertini 1.25m motorised dish driven by the AD3000, with either Inverto BU Quad or Norsat / XMW Ka LNBs . SMW 1.05m + 3 other dishes. Speccy: Promax HD Ranger+
My Location
The Flatlands of East Anglia
#10
Likvid said:
Nah they have dropped all noise measurements these days and their LNBs comes packaged only as typical NF printed.

I guess it took too much time to measure each LNB like the old days.

What, no individual noise figure/frequency printout supplied?

At the price they charge?

Llew
 

Likvid

ASBO Club Member - Persona non grata
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My Location
Stockholm, Sweden
#11
Llew said:
What, no individual noise figure/frequency printout supplied?

At the price they charge?

Llew
Not supplied anymore.

I have ordered about 6 SMW LNBs over the last 3 years and none has ever come with a printout as they used to do in the old days.
 
Messages
5
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0
My Satellite Setup
WaveFrontier Torodial T-90, Prodelin 1184 1.8 m, Invacom 0.3 Single Universal LNB, 8 regular LNBs, DM500-S, various switches
My Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#12
Likvid said:
SMW sells a Prodelin adapter which is the exact thing you need.

They even call it Prodelin adapter plate or something.
Thanks. I'm still a bit confused, though, when I look at this picture:

http://www.smw.se/res/default/adapterprodelin.jpg

I can easily imagine that the holes in the circular pattern will fit my feed horn, but I don't quite see how the other (larger) 4 holes forming a square will fit the circular holes in a standard C120 lnb?

I'm sorry if that is a newbie question, but I really am a bit new to all this with flange LNB's, feedhorns etc.

Also thank you for your advice on the Inverto LNB's. I will see to get one of these rather than the Invacom I was planning.

Regards
 

geoffrey

Regular Member
Messages
131
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Location
Zichron Yaacov
My Satellite Setup
2.4M ChannelMaster Offset with Smart Titanium TQS LNB. LG SMART TV with SuperTrack V-Box 2 on ChannelMaster 1.2M Offset. TBS5925 tuner with EBSPro on Windows 10 laptop. Satlook Digital NIT.
My Location
Israel
#13
SME told me that the difference between the C120/C120 adapter and the Prodelin adapter was that the Prodelin adapter had the groove for the O ring on one surface. There was no mention of different hole patterns.
 

dxsat

Specialist Contributor
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My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#14
The feed which is provided with the Prodelin 1.8m offset has a square bore, no use at all with most c120 LNb's, which expect to see a circular bore.
The ones I've come across have a plastic front cover and a rainshade like that fitted to a telescope.
It is only of any use with an adapter and a SMW-type LNB. The adapter has an insertion loss so will reduce the signal.
I've tried this feed and it is no good at all for the average user. Connecting it to a standard c120 lnb gives very poor results.
The easiest way is to buy the Andrews / ChannelMaster feed which is a perfect match for both this dish and the ChannelMaster 1.8m.
You're only ever able to use four of the holes to bolt the feed to the LNB. You'll get the best performance from the Invacom quad c120 LNB(not Quattro). I've never tested the Inverto but I believe these are good as well.
 
Messages
5
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My Satellite Setup
WaveFrontier Torodial T-90, Prodelin 1184 1.8 m, Invacom 0.3 Single Universal LNB, 8 regular LNBs, DM500-S, various switches
My Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#15
snap said:
The feed which is provided with the Prodelin 1.8m offset has a square bore, no use at all with most c120 LNb's, which expect to see a circular bore.
I'm not quite sure if we're talking about the same feedhorn. Mine has a circular hole. Just to avoid any confusion, I've attached pictures to this post of the feedhorn.

snap said:
The ones I've come across have a plastic front cover and a rainshade like that fitted to a telescope.
It is only of any use with an adapter and a SMW-type LNB. The adapter has an insertion loss so will reduce the signal.
This was my concern. And on top of that, the products of SMW are a bit pricey.


snap said:
I've tried this feed and it is no good at all for the average user. Connecting it to a standard c120 lnb gives very poor results.
The easiest way is to buy the Andrews / ChannelMaster feed which is a perfect match for both this dish and the ChannelMaster 1.8m.
This is good info, thanks. It seems that this really is the way to go. Do you know if the feedhorn from Andrews / Channel Master will match all my specs? (1.8 m reflector, f/D, degree angle etc.?) Even still, it seems I'm going to order this to get some decent results from the setup.

snap said:
You're only ever able to use four of the holes to bolt the feed to the LNB. You'll get the best performance from the Invacom quad c120 LNB(not Quattro). I've never tested the Inverto but I believe these are good as well.
Is there a performance difference between the quattro and the quad? I'm pretty sure I'm going to need to use the quattro as the multiswitch we're going to use expects an input of HL / HH / VL / VH. I know that the quad could output this too, but I'm not sure that the switch sends any controlling tones/dc's to the lnb's. It's a Triax TMS118 multiswitch.

Thank you for the helpfull info. I'm going ahead ordering a feedhorn from Andrews or Channel Master - and then either an Inverto or a Invacom LNB.

Regards
 

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dxsat

Specialist Contributor
Messages
745
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70
My Satellite Setup
Snap's setup: (In Spain) Humax HDR, Prodelin 1.8m dish + Invacom QDF-031 + CM feed, (In UK) CallFlow VDSL + EE 4G, Sky Q, YouView HD, Mac OSX, iOS
My Location
UK: Tonbridge, Kent. Spain: Madrid.
#16
This isn't the feedhorn normally supplied with the Prodelin 1.8m dishes from my supplier.
It's shorter than the ChannelMaster. In my experience this makes a huge difference in performance, as the feed tube has to be the right length (longer than yours) to function effectively on weak 2D.
I believe there's not much difference between the Quad and Quattro. You end up with the same result at the receiver if using a multiswitch, but really not a good idea to use a Quattro on a single installation, as additional circuitry between LNB and receiver will result in slight signal loss.