Advice required please driving two dishes from one receiver. : )

jeallen01

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#21
@Spiff
Congrats on making the setup work (most of the time), but, TBH, I think that using an antenna relay (as I outlined earlier!) could significantly reduce the signal losses from both DiSEqC-controlled LNBs and the steerable dish LNB.
 
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a33

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#22
Swapping the C band to position four cured that problem, I assume the signal was getting across inside the switch somehow.

Just the odd problem now with the dish not driving to a KU band position.
Drive it to a different sat, then it will go to the errant one.

Just to understand what is happening:
- On what diseqc input is/was the KU-dish, input 1 or 2?
- Do I understand correctly, that EVERY time you switch from C to KU-dish, that the KU-motor doesn't move; it moves only after your second KU-dish moving command?

- And on what input did you have C-dish, before changing it to input 4?
- Does the motor move everytime you switch from Ku to C-dish?

Good thinking to switch to port 4, to minimise crosstalk in the switch! (Inputs 1+2 and inputs 3+4 in diseqc switches usually share a PIN-diode....)
Edit: But if it was on port 1, crosstalk probably wasn't the cause! "Port 1" was...

Might be that you need the two-step switching procedure that I described earlier, for switching to KU. That another switch wouldn't help for that.
But first I want to understand what is happening, to explore the causes of the problem, and other possible solutions.


@jeallen01 : signal loss of diseqc switches usually concerns only signal strength, not signal quality. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Greetz,
A33
 
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Spiff

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#23
Just to understand what is happening:
- On what diseqc input is/was the KU-dish, input 1 or 2?
- Do I understand correctly, that EVERY time you switch from C to KU-dish, that the KU-motor doesn't move; it moves only after your second KU-dish moving command?

- And on what input did you have C-dish, before changing it to input 4?
- Does the motor move everytime you switch from Ku to C-dish?

Good thinking to switch to port 4, to minimise crosstalk in the switch! (Inputs 1+2 and inputs 3+4 in diseqc switches usually share a PIN-diode....)
Edit: But if it was on port 1, crosstalk probably wasn't the cause! "Port 1" was...

Might be that you need the two-step switching procedure that I described earlier, for switching to KU. That another switch wouldn't help for that.
But first I want to understand what is happening, to explore the causes of the problem, and other possible solutions.


@jeallen01 : signal loss of diseqc switches usually concerns only signal strength, not signal quality. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Greetz,
A33
Good evening thank you for your interest : )

Well its nearly 1AM so good morning.

The switch is intermittent, it just failed to activate either of the Primesat box's, until I tapped it.

Now it is working again.

I will re-check the cables before condemning it.

The brain is a little scrambled at the moment, from entering transponders etc to reposition the C band stations in the sat list : )

I have has similar switches go faulty before.

After a good nights sleep I will re-value the situation.

The KU is on position one C now on four that did stop the interaction.

Interesting about the diodes.

Will come back again when the brain is rested : )

God Bless Spiff
 
Spiff

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#24
Any recommendations on DiSEqC switches. gentleman : )

I note that Global Communications DiSEqC Switchs state 25db isolation.

It is also an older manufacture.

I am about to replace some of the fly leads with a thinner coaxial, as the heavy stuff it is like working with gas pipes : )

I remember that when I replaced the long runs with the heavier cable, there was no difference in the quality level.

I suppose cross talk could be worse as cheaper coaxial has less screening.

God Bless Spiff
 
jeallen01

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#25
@Spiff
Probably can't go wrong with the ones from EMP-Centauri (some of which you can find on ebay - can be cheaper than direct from EMP) or Spaun stuff and the tech support is generally very good. More expensive than ebay or Amazon "no-names" (avoid anything with the "BEST" name on like the plauge!) but good and reliable.
 
Spiff

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#26
Thank you for your advice on the switch.

Today I replaced all the fly leads to a more pliable gauge.

I found an intermittent fault on the aerial plug to the Technomate.

As a lot of the cable are zipped together so any vibration even from the TV sound system could have set it off

At the moment all appears to be working as it should, though after years in electronics it will be some time before I am convinced : )

God Bless Spiff
 

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jeallen01

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#27
FWIW re the flyleads, if you have crosstalk issues with the new ones, get some of the smaller diameter/more flexible CT65 dual-conductor cable and then split it into single cables as CT65 should have similar shielding to the good larger diameter foam-filled CT100 cables.
 
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a33

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#28
... all appears to be working as it should,
That's nice!
So, if Ku-dish doesn't ever move, when you switch from Ku to C-dish, I guess the command order from your receiver is in fact diseqc 1.1+1.0, and then diseqc 1.2. :)
Couldn't be better, for your setup!

Greetz,
A33
 
Spiff

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#29
Hallo A33 : )

Well it worked fine yesterday, but unfortunately today it played up badly, switching to C band also caused the KU band box to drive.

This upset some of the sat positions on KU band.

The motor signal must be sent before the diseqc 1 or at the same time, on the Technomate.

There is no way to change this that I could find.

To have a position to switch to in between changing bands would appear not to be possible, as it would require I think the diseqc three motor to be set to off on that position.

Turning it off turned it off on all the satellites ?

I have now fitted a vintage manual switch which works fine, I may upgrade to a remote controlled one.

Ideally I require a Technomate with a similar menu, that has 4K and a timing option for the motor and diseqc 1 switching.

I may sell my Ariva 4k box, it works fine but I prefer the menu on the Technomate.

The purpose of all this has been to reduce the switching and the receivers to one.

Thank you all for your advice : )

Update.

It has just dawned on me that I could have switched to a un-used position on the diseqc 1 switch, in-between KU & C band.

Never mind I prefer the manual switch as it is a simpler option.

God Bless Spiff
 

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#30
Hallo A33 : )

...I have now fitted a vintage manual switch which works fine, I may upgrade to a remote controlled one....
Thank you all for your advice : )

God Bless Spiff
Possibly true, and probably the easiest (and cheapest?) solution:)
 
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a33

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#31
Well it worked fine yesterday, but unfortunately today it played up badly, switching to C band also caused the KU band box to drive.
I'm thinking of two possible ways to try to overcome this.

First:
If it doesn't the other way round, switching from C-dish to Ku-dish, try changing port 1 to port 2 for Ku-dish (so port 1 as default port is not used anymore).
Does this help?

Second:
For the two step switching procedure I described earlier, add (in your receiver) a fictive C-band satellite and a fictive Ku-band satellite, both with a program attached to that satellite. Define these satellites with the proper diseqc 1.0-command for C and Ku, but without motor command!

Then for changing motor-dishes, always first choose the fictive program of the wanted dish, and only after that select the wanted program. So the motor command is always sent only after the proper dish is chosen by the diseqc 1.0 switch.

If this procedure is too troublesome for you, a manual A/B switch or 0/12V switch would indeed also be a good (less-automatic) solution.
Edit: but they have the same risk of moving the wrong dish, when you forgot to use the switch!


BTW I don't quite understand this "This upset some of the sat positions on KU band." How can the stored diseqc 1.2 positions be disturbed by move-commands? Otherwise restore by sending the command Goto-0 or Goto-Reference.

Greetz,
A33
 
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Spiff

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#32
I'm thinking of two possible ways to try to overcome this.

First:
If it doesn't the other way round, switching from C-dish to Ku-dish, try changing port 1 to port 2 for Ku-dish (so port 1 as default port is not used anymore).
Does this help?

Second:
For the two step switching procedure I described earlier, add (in your receiver) a fictive C-band satellite and a fictive Ku-band satellite, both with a program attached to that satellite. Define these satellites with the proper diseqc 1.0-command for C and Ku, but without motor command!

Then for changing motor-dishes, always first choose the fictive program of the wanted dish, and only after that select the wanted program. So the motor command is always sent only after the proper dish is chosen by the diseqc 1.0 switch.

If this procedure is too troublesome for you, a manual A/B switch or 0/12V switch would indeed also be a good (less-automatic) solution.
Edit: but they have the same risk of moving the wrong dish, when you forgot to use the switch!


BTW I don't quite understand this "This upset some of the sat positions on KU band." How can the stored diseqc 1.2 positions be disturbed by move-commands? Otherwise restore by sending the command Goto-0 or Goto-Reference.

Greetz,
A33
I did try using port 2 for KU and leaving C on port 4, but it made no difference.

I tried turning off the motor command on one of the KU sats before setting up a fictive satellite, it turned the motor off on all the KU sats.

It did not appear possible to switch off just one, but perhaps I use the wrong place to do it ?

It struck me as a solution that I would probably make an error with : )

I think now that I could have used an un-used position on the switch to do a similar thing ?

The manual switch if fine, but as you say I have to remember to use it.

BTW I don't quite understand this "This upset some of the sat positions on KU band." How can the stored diseqc 1.2 positions be disturbed by move-commands?

Perhaps only part of the command for the wrong dish got through, I am not sure on that one, it appeared to affect only some sats ?

Does the command to go to a sat, take into account the last sat you were on, I mean does it have to know where you are, or is the signal the same from any position ?

So if a some move signal got through that was for C to KU it would mess things up ?

I tend to think of it like uniselectors counting pulses, but it probably does not work like that.

God Bless Spiff
 
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#33
I did try using port 2 for KU and leaving C on port 4, but it made no difference.
That is a pity. Though I don't really understand why switching to C causes movenment on Ku, but not the other way round.
Edit: still wondering if this is a problem of your specific switch? In this topic it is causing no problem: DiSEqC 1.1 16x1 Gecen GD-1601A - SatsUK

I tried turning off the motor command on one of the KU sats before setting up a fictive satellite, it turned the motor off on all the KU sats.
It did not appear possible to switch off just one, but perhaps I use the wrong place to do it ?
Can you post a picture of the menu options you have? LNB setup menu, and satellite setup menus?
I guess you have to define a third LNB.


As far as I know, a diseqc 1.2 position is stored in a positioner or diseqc motor as the number of pulses away from zero-point (reference). So if zero is unaltered, the command Goto(position)Nn is always carried out to the correct stored position, not dependant on previous position.


Now, a third possible solution (not having the risk of 'forgetting' to switch to the right dish beforehand):
Store all C-band satellite positions as GotoNn in odd numbers in one positioner, and all Ku-band positions as GotoNn in even numbers in the other positioner; leaving the unused numbers EMPTY (or a similar division of GotoNn-numbers). So a motor command will only affect the relevant dish.
(I just remembered having read this once, in a forum... :) )
I have at least one receiver that can specify the StoreNn-number (edited!). Your receiver also?
(Maybe this phenomenon is also the cause for the fact that the movement of the other dish is sometimes present in your case, sometimes not: depending on the presence/absence of a GotoNn position?)

Greetz,
A33
 
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Spiff

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#34
That is a pity. Though I don't really understand why switching to C causes movenment on Ku, but not the other way round.
Edit: still wondering if this is a problem of your specific switch? In this topic it is causing no problem: DiSEqC 1.1 16x1 Gecen GD-1601A - SatsUK



Can you post a picture of the menu options you have? LNB setup menu, and satellite setup menus?
I guess you have to define a third LNB.


As far as I know, a diseqc 1.2 position is stored in a positioner or diseqc motor as the number of pulses away from zero-point (reference). So if zero is unaltered, the command Goto(position)Nn is always carried out to the correct stored position, not dependant on previous position.


Now, a third possible solution (not having the risk of 'forgetting' to switch to the right dish beforehand):
Store all C-band satellite positions as GotoNn in odd numbers in one positioner, and all Ku-band positions as GotoNn in even numbers in the other positioner; leaving the unused numbers EMPTY (or a similar division of GotoNn-numbers). So a motor command will only affect the relevant dish.
(I just remembered having read this once, in a forum... :) )
I have at least one receiver that can specify the StoreNn-number (edited!). Your receiver also?
(Maybe this phenomenon is also the cause for the fact that the movement of the other dish is sometimes present in your case, sometimes not: depending on the presence/absence of a GotoNn position?)

Greetz,
A33
Good afternoon A33 Thank you for your interest.

The switch as you say could be faulty, which would go towards explaining the fact that one day it worked, then not the next.

There is one for sale or was with 25db separation which sounded good, it only has two positions, I shall order it for a start.

Is the switching done by diodes or something like a reed switch ?

Pictures of menu's below.

Advanced Search adds transponders.

The storing of positions by different numbers sounds a possibility if all else fails, thank you.

I have wondered if the switch is perhaps only made for LNB switching, not to handle a higher level of signal like the signalling for the motor drive, not sure on that one.

God Bless Spiff
 

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#35
I used one of those STABDiseqc 1.0 -1.2 converters
I remember a complete mount solution, I was pressured into buying and fitting three of them owing to the budget requirements of the clients. They would only work from 20East to about 5 West. Two died within a year and the third was made redundant by the Iranian channels moving outside the mechanical limitations.

Oh, and they took ages to move a 1.2 m dish across the arc.
 
jeallen01

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#36
@Spiff
BTW: With the TM5402 (or at least the M3 version) , you have only the choice to switch a DiSEqC 1.2 /USALS motor either ON or OFF for ALL the sats at the same time, i.e. you cannot select that for the individual sats. (OTOH, some more modern Rx do allow individual settings, but I don't think there is a newer TM that has 4K)

Also, as for using an R/C antenna relay and forgetting to change the relay position, the remotes for those are very small, and mine is stuck to the rear of (ATM) the SX88+ R/C with some double-sided foam tape, and it has a sliding cover over the selector button to prevent you hitting that accidentally. With the SX88+, the relay switches between a steerable TD88 (and via a Smart Priority Switch - SPS) and (via another SPS) a 10-1 DiSEqC 1.1 switch connected the fixed dish LNBs. The SX88+ has both 1.1 and USALS commands set for most of the sats, and that setup works "seamlessly", even when I switch between a fixed dish LNB on (say) 13E and the TD88 pointed at the same sat.

Therefore I think that using DiSEqC switches for what you want to do is "over-complicating" what should be a simple switch-over task - an antenna relay between the Rx and the 2x Primesat boxes is by far the simplest solution IMHO. OTOH, it's a pity that most (all?) modern Rx's have lost the switchable- per-sat 0/12V o/p that used to be on the rear panels of many of the old Rx's, as, with that option and an antenna relay, you could do exactly what you want automatically.
 
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a33

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#37
Re menu's:
Is it not the case, that in the menu 'motorized settings' you can choose for every satellite if it has a diseqc 1.2 command or not?
So you can possibly define a "Goto C-dish" satellite, and a "Goto Ku-dish" satellite, I guess, with no motor commands; leaving the motor commands for other satellites unchanged?

BTW What happens (sub-menu?) if you press OK when on the button 'motor control'?
(Do you have a choice for numbers for StoreNn/GotoNn commands? Or can that be done in a channel editor, for your receiver?)

A diseqc switch switches the DC-power with (often darlington-pair) transistors, and the RF signal with PIN-diodes. Don't know which path the 22kHz signal takes (could be both?).
A diseqc switch would be perfectly suitable for cascading with other diseqc material. (Most switches can handle 500mA, so that is usually no problem.)

BTW I would prefer to use a 4/1 switch, as to have the possibility to not use the default port (port 1)! They are not much more expensive than the 2/1 switches.
But maybe it makes little difference (for in the earlier link I gave it had no problems).

NB For testing reasons of how your switch reacts, I would also try to give the C-dish a diseqc 1.1 command, and also the Ku-dish (another 1.1 command). But that would be trying a lucky shot, if somehow the time of the 1.1+1.0 commands would no longer give time to the diseqc 1.2 command to reach both motorized dishes. I have no sound theory or hypothesis for that, though; I would just test/try it... :D

A33
 
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#38
@a33
With the TM5402 M3, you can choose either 1.2 or USALS (and, IIRC, can select a mixture of those) for every sat, but once you disable motor control for 1 sat then it is automatically disabled for all the rest of them (and vice-versa)!
 
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a33

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#39
With the TM5402 M3, you can choose either 1.2 or USALS (and, IIRC, can select a mixture of those) for every sat, but once you disable motor control for 1 sat then it is automatically disabled for all the rest of them!
That is a pity!
(You posted while I was still writing!)
So the technomate algorythm takes control? And reduces possibilities and manual control, alas.

Just hope that the number-choice of GotoNn is left open, then...

Greetz,
A33
 
jeallen01

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#40
That is a pity!
(You posted while I was still writing!)
So the technomate algorythm takes control? And reduces possibilities and manual control, alas.

Just hope that the number-choice of GotoNn is left open, then...

Greetz,
A33
One learns to work around as many of the issues as one can - as, like a few people, I've found that that TM is a nice reliable and simple tool which doesn't spring too many surprises, and has advantages like selectable frequency-band blindsearch and so on. Very useful for getting a system up and running, after which you can play with something more "sophisticated" to fine tune it.
 
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