Am I pointing at the right satellite?

william-1

william-1

Super Moderator
Staff member
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8,204
Location
Epping Forest
My Satellite Setup
OP Gibertini 100 XP+ Inverto Black Ultra 0.2
(50 east to 45 west)
TM6902HD (A/B switch) TM5502HD

88cm Dish +Inverto Black Ultra 0.2
(53 east to 45 west)
Octagon SX88+ (A/B switch), Octagon SX88

45cm SpiderboxHD9000
My Location
Epping Forest Essex
Some folk claim to be able to receive several satellites with a single Lnb fixed dish system,
For example 31.5 east,28.2 east,26 east 23.5 east,19.2 east,16 east,13 east,9 east,5 east ect share the same transponder frequencies just because the signal bars light up does not mean you are receiving other satellites other than the one that your dish is aimed at.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
It is NOT the box, it is you mislabelling the satellite by telling it to scan that satellite when the dish is not aligned on 26E- it is finding channels that are on the same frequencies as its stored list for 26E - the tuner does not know where it is pointed and cannot identify satellites - a very common mistake by newbies and non tech sat enthusiasts.
We shall have to disagree on your overall assessment although I agree with parts of it!! I did not "mislabel" anything - the box did, although I do own to being a novice! Different satellites may well use the same frequencies, and I can see from Mariust5's comment above that, as there is no way I could obtain the BADR satellite signal in Europe, duplicate usage of frequencies by such satellites makes entire sense. However, the box came preloaded with satellite information and it clearly was receiving from the dish signals that were of a frequency, polarisation etc as being compatible in its view of having been broadcast by BADR. It showed the signal being higher in strength and quality than the satellite at 28E. No other satellites further away from28 East showed any quality of signal. I assume the box looks at the signals it receives and matches this information with the list of pre-installed satellites and makes a guess at what it has found - hence the suggested Astra and BADR. I believe the receiver's firmware predates the launch of the latest Astra satellites and was picking up signals from astra 2E and 2G but could only label them as from its own pre-existing list of satellites - which only had one at 28East. I would think that it is technically feasible for each satellite to have a unique id signal, even if it uses the same frequencies as others to transmit. If this is so than my box has not the capability to use that info effectively, possibly because the info it holds is out of date. So if the box tells me that it is receiving a strong, high quality signal from a satellite, when in fact it is not, then it is the box misleading me and not vice versa! PS I do thank you for the technical info.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
Some folk claim to be able to receive several satellites with a single Lnb fixed dish system,
For example 31.5 east,28.2 east,26 east 23.5 east,19.2 east,16 east,13 east,9 east,5 east ect share the same transponder frequencies just because the signal bars light up does not mean you are receiving other satellites other than the one that your dish is aimed at.
Thanks, yes I understand this now. I can remember a few years back that a satellite to the West was appearing to give a strong signal - now I know why. I guess my confusion arose because 26 E is so close to 28 East that it might have been pointing somewhere in between and picking up both. I know the reasons now, so it was definitely worthwhile getting info from you guys.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
If you change satellites on your box , for example put it on 23 east or 13 east you will pick up a lot of signals but your dish being fixed on 28 it just means they are similar frequencies .. it doesn't mean you have a signal on the other satellites as Lazarus has explained ..

I don't know why someone hasn't picked on this earlier but you can't get 26 east in France with a 70 cm dish :)
Thanks! Wish I'd known earlier!
 
D

davemurgtroyd

Regular Member
Messages
1,198
Location
Oxford
My Satellite Setup
See signature
My Location
Oxford
We shall have to disagree on your overall assessment although I agree with parts of it!! I did not "mislabel" anything - the box did, although I do own to being a novice! Different satellites may well use the same frequencies, and I can see from Mariust5's comment above that, as there is no way I could obtain the BADR satellite signal in Europe, duplicate usage of frequencies by such satellites makes entire sense. However, the box came preloaded with satellite information and it clearly was receiving from the dish signals that were of a frequency, polarisation etc as being compatible in its view of having been broadcast by BADR. It showed the signal being higher in strength and quality than the satellite at 28E. No other satellites further away from28 East showed any quality of signal. I assume the box looks at the signals it receives and matches this information with the list of pre-installed satellites and makes a guess at what it has found - hence the suggested Astra and BADR. I believe the receiver's firmware predates the launch of the latest Astra satellites and was picking up signals from astra 2E and 2G but could only label them as from its own pre-existing list of satellites - which only had one at 28East. I would think that it is technically feasible for each satellite to have a unique id signal, even if it uses the same frequencies as others to transmit. If this is so than my box has not the capability to use that info effectively, possibly because the info it holds is out of date. So if the box tells me that it is receiving a strong, high quality signal from a satellite, when in fact it is not, then it is the box misleading me and not vice versa! PS I do thank you for the technical info.
No the box usually has no way of identifying which satellite it is pointing at - you tell it which satellite it is and the bo then scans (and labels the satellite name you told it to scan) the frequencies stored in its database for the satellite you have told it. Actually some satellites do broadcast info to identify the satellite (network id and broadcast stream) but I have never come across a receiver (in the last 30 odd years) which uses that info. The labelling has been applied by you telling the receiver which database to use. It would be next to useless for a receiver to try to identify a satellite position/group from the frequencies received - transponders are switched on and off (and channels moved to new ones) very frequently, satellites have a limited life and when replaced they usually have a differing set of transponders/frequencies and local reception/interference problems may well block certain frequencies.

Receivers come from the factory with a pre-loaded database of satellites and their transponder frequencies for easier "plug and play" installation of the receiver and is invariably out of date by the time you purchase it. This database can be (and should) be manually editted by the new owner by adding new transpobders and often new satellite groups to this database. These databases will also vary which satellites they list depending on the market a particular box is to be sold in - very little point in listing Far East and Australasian satellites on a European box.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
No the box usually has no way of identifying which satellite it is pointing at - you tell it which satellite it is and the bo then scans (and labels the satellite name you told it to scan) the frequencies stored in its database for the satellite you have told it. Actually some satellites do broadcast info to identify the satellite (network id and broadcast stream) but I have never come across a receiver (in the last 30 odd years) which uses that info. The labelling has been applied by you telling the receiver which database to use. It would be next to useless for a receiver to try to identify a satellite position/group from the frequencies received - transponders are switched on and off (and channels moved to new ones) very frequently, satellites have a limited life and when replaced they usually have a differing set of transponders/frequencies and local reception/interference problems may well block certain frequencies.

Receivers come from the factory with a pre-loaded database of satellites and their transponder frequencies for easier "plug and play" installation of the receiver and is invariably out of date by the time you purchase it. This database can be (and should) be manually editted by the new owner by adding new transpobders and often new satellite groups to this database. These databases will also vary which satellites they list depending on the market a particular box is to be sold in - very little point in listing Far East and Australasian satellites on a European box.
OK thanks.
Let me ask you a very straightforward question then. First I'll give you the routine employed to set up the system. The technomate box was attached to tv and satellite dish. The dish was pointing nowhere near any satellite and between the dish lnb and coaxial cable was a little basic signal detector. The box at this stage registers about 25 pre-installed satellites. As I scroll through them each one has a strength and quality bar below. Each and every one of them registers 85 strength and 5 quality ie there is no difference between any of them. Next I adjust my dish and get the strongest possible signal from the area of 28 East. Now I look at the tv again and find that all of the satellites listed are still registering 85 strength and 5 quality apart from two - 28.2 E and BADR 26E, both of which are registering higher strength than 85 and quality up near 60. My question to you is "Why do these two satellites register as having higher quality signals than the rest"?
 
M

mariust5

Specialist Contributor
Messages
470
My Satellite Setup
Cristor Atlas 100HD , motorised 1.1 Triax on Stab H-H
My Location
hastings , uk
Because the shared frequencies are not exact , the 2 that you had strong signal had the exact same data in the Transponder frequency and the others had , even if minute , diferencies . For example a different FEC , instead of 5/6 , it was 2/3 .. some Transponders would have changed to HD only and so on .. If you change satellite and than scroll through the frequencies range you will find full signals on many frequencies still :)
 
Lazarus

Lazarus

Tout Rond Bon Oeuf
Staff member
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25,372
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80cm Motorised.
Several small Dishes.
Much else.
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North York Moors
.... and, those unmoving strength and quality readings are telling you absolutely nothing other than that your LNB is connected and receiving power. That's all.

Stop thinking of the stored "Satellites" and think of them as infinitely editable databases. They are only "Satellites" when the data that is pre-stored, or added by you, correlate to what is being transmitted by the real Satellite you align your dish to.
 
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a33

Member
Messages
439
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
My Location
NL
"Why do these two satellites register as having higher quality signals than the rest"?
A receiver in 'satellite signal menu' gives the signal quality of just ONE frequency, that is stored in the receiver as belonging to that satellite.
That frequency can be right or wrong for that satellite (frequencies and specs can be changed, and be out-of-date), and also be used by any other satellite.
Thankfully that frequency (normally) in the receiver can also be changed, if you wish.

So when looking for a specific satellite:
- check that the stored transponder-frequency (and other transponder specs for that frequency) for that satellite is still in use (kingofsat, flysat, lyngsat, etc);
- when you get a signal: check what channels you receive; if they indeed belong to the satellite you aim for.

But you were right that YOU did not mislabel anything. It was in fact the box that fooled you.
But that was because you didn't check the stored frequency, and the received channels.

greetz,
A33
 
4wd

4wd

Getting the picture
Messages
1,497
My Satellite Setup
5 W, 9-13-19-28 E
My Location
Bergen, Norway \ Alpes Maritimes, France
The sattelite name that shows up is just a label for some collection of stored frequencies\transponders. On receivers one may edit\rename any satellite label to anything one wants, example change Astra19 into being called Somethinginthesky. Whatever it's called, it's just a collection of frequencies\digits which is given a name.

What matters is the collection of stored frequencies, that they are current\updated for a given satellite position, and that the bunch of frequencies stored under a sat name\label has a practical name, for freesat something like 28.2 or Astra2, or Ukchannelsfromthesky or whatever.

So some signal can appear to be from 'badr' or whatever label that is showing, but it's just that the frequency collection under that label by chance contains some frequencies also present in other sat labels.

Example, one may turn a dish 45 degrees from 28.2 to some random sat position, and maybe still find something that would trig a frequency stored under the 28.2 label.

Good luck.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
Thanks to everyone for their patience and help. I now think I have everything set up properly. Channels added and ordered to give me my preferred home regional BBC1 and ITV and one CBeebies channel relabelled to BBC4 for evenings. All I now wait for is the next rainfall, which in the Dordogne is likely to be an almighty thunderstorm in a few days time after all this very hot weather. Then we'll see how it fares in light/moderate/heavy and torrential rain all within the space of an hour!
 
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a33

Member
Messages
439
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
My Location
NL
and one CBeebies channel relabelled to BBC4 for evenings.
Do you have proper EPG and now/next on that "BBC4"?

The trick I used for that:
I did a frequency scan for the BBC4 transponder in the evening, with a slightly different SR Value than what kingofsat/lyngsat/etc indicate (e.g. 22001 instead of 22000).
My receiver sees that as a different transponder than the SR 22000 one, so it is stored as a different transponder, with the evening programms not over-writing the daytime programms.
All the facilities of BBC4 are thus in my receiver, next to the CBeebies facilities at that programm.

Greetz,
A33
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
Do you have proper EPG and now/next on that "BBC4"?

The trick I used for that:
I did a frequency scan for the BBC4 transponder in the evening, with a slightly different SR Value than what kingofsat/lyngsat/etc indicate (e.g. 22001 instead of 22000).
My receiver sees that as a different transponder than the SR 22000 one, so it is stored as a different transponder, with the evening programms not over-writing the daytime programms.
All the facilities of BBC4 are thus in my receiver, next to the CBeebies facilities at that programm.

Greetz,
A33
That's a good trick! I tried it and it did not work then re-read your post and realised I had to do it in the evening. I've just done it and it has worked, I have the epg now and next for BBC Four - and the channel is labelled as that as well. Thank you. My epg only ever shows the next couple of programmes, but I guess there is no trick to get more - or is there????
 
A

a33

Member
Messages
439
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
My Location
NL
Thank you. My epg only ever shows the next couple of programmes, but I guess there is no trick to get more - or is there????
My pleasure. :)

I'm not sure about EPG. I've read sometime there are 2 or 3 systems for that, and it depends on the system(s) your receiver supports.
Don't know more, I'm afraid...

greetz,
A33
 
D

davemurgtroyd

Regular Member
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1,198
Location
Oxford
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My Location
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There are 4 possible sources for EPG data on 28East - Sky (7day), Freesat (7 day). DVB S standard (Now and next only for 28East). and internet connecyion to download. Your box at present is using the DVB S one. What model of Technomate box - some can be configured/ "hacked"/software updated to use others. Sky's EPG covers all current channels (except those testing/waiting launch). Freesat's EPG covers just over 50% of the FTA channels, DVB S EPG is broadcast by virtually every channel.
 
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freeme3

Member
Messages
14
My Satellite Setup
technomate tm3000d
My Location
France - SW
There are 4 possible sources for EPG data on 28East - Sky (7day), Freesat (7 day). DVB S standard (Now and next only for 28East). and internet connecyion to download. Your box at present is using the DVB S one. What model of Technomate box - some can be configured/ "hacked"/software updated to use others. Sky's EPG covers all current channels (except those testing/waiting launch). Freesat's EPG covers just over 50% of the FTA channels, DVB S EPG is broadcast by virtually every channel.
Hello, It is an old box = a Technomate TM-3000D with a software version V3.56 (11/06/2010). It is probably time for an upgrade but it works fine except for the lack of a forward epg.
 
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