Astra 2F: Iberia & Balearics Discussion

[Huevos]

Got to say I'm sceptical about all the negative reports from Barcelona and the Balearics. All the Barcelona dishes are in the 80cm/1m range, and a T90, which we don't even know what part of the arc it is centred on. And in Palma de Mallorca all the reports I've heard so far have been positive on a 1.3m dish. What we really need is a spectrum trace off one of those dishes so we can compare signal from 1N and 2F. The signal only needs to be a few tenths of a dB below the receive floor and any DVB receiver will display 0%.

 

[Analoguesat]

Ive seen one positive report for a 1.6m dish in Palma Majorca.

As for the rest of the reports well folk are only reporting the signals on what they have available, and not many folk have multiple dish sizes available to test things with. No doubt soon or later a positive report will appear from the Barcelona area from somebody with a suitable sized dish. I would guess a 1.5m would stand a reaonable chance there.

 

[davidcmadrid]

Im hunting around looking for reports from Barcelona and Catalunya posting in Spanish.. but its not an area with a large dish install base.It appears there is a lot of people with 1,2m on motors and traditionally any expats on 2D would have been fine with a .8 , hopefully somebody pops up. This being said the cliff drop in field intensity in other areas is in some cases very steep with distance so anything could emerge from this information black spot.

 

[joddle]

The problem In Barcelona and that area really is not that UK tv cannot be got from 2F, but that most people who watch it are currently using small dishes!. In turn this means there is no one around who can give us an indication of signals from say 1.3m or 1.5m dishes in that area - as there are simply virtually none installed there at the moment for 28.2E

The next problem is that no one in their right mind is going to get a new dish until they know what size will work well there - and as no-one has that answer it is a bit of vicious circle.

I think the one way forward is for some installers to run some experiments with various sized dishes to determine which would be suitable and then announce that information so people will have the confidence to buy- however I think some poeple will then suspect dealers may simply go for the most espensive oprtion to a) ensure they are correct and b maybe to get a good profit. Another option is for people with larger dishes to start reporting their findings - and of course that appeal has already gone out from this website but so far with little response at the moment - no doubt due to the scarcity of such dishes in the area.

Before things can get better someone has to take the plunge and see what size dish is needed - no doubt when this happens everyone can then decide what to do - but until then, everyone is waiting for someone else to move - and add to that things may change a little with 2E - catch 22!

 

[park_gate]

Got to say I'm sceptical about all the negative reports from Barcelona and the Balearics. All the Barcelona dishes are in the 80cm/1m range, and a T90, which we don't even know what part of the arc it is centred on. And in Palma de Mallorca all the reports I've heard so far have been positive on a 1.3m dish. What we really need is a spectrum trace off one of those dishes so we can compare signal from 1N and 2F. The signal only needs to be a few tenths of a dB below the receive floor and any DVB receiver will display 0%.

From the signal reports we can definitely say there is a drop of in signal level on the Costa Brava and it increase back up as you go south towards the Costa Blanca before it drops off again on the Costa del Sol.

How bad the problem is, is really difficult to say, not just because these areas tend to have smaller dishes but even those with bigger dishes might not have them aligned correctly as it was never that critical.

What’s more LNB’s seem to go off with age. This is something people on the Costa Blanca discovered with Astra 2D and something people on the Costa Brava and Costa del Sol maybe about to discover. So the large dish signal reports maybe from poorly aligned dishes with knackered LNB’s.

We’re not going to get the full picture until BBC and ITV go off in the second half of next year. Then there will be a big incentive to find out what is needed in these area.

Terry

Update since I posted this I found the following

hxxp://tinyurl.com/bpso38x

which includes a report of a "Sky guy" trying a 3M dish in Malaga and finding it didn't work.

Assuming the "Sky guy" is a professional installer it doesn’t look good for the Costa del Sol. Could it be worse than the Canaries?

 

[davidcmadrid]

Confirmed report from Madrid 1M motorized dish all stable and watchable
Confirmed report from Madrid 80cm motorized no lock ( though one wonders if it was LNB to reciever without a motsat 3 in the middle what would happen )

 

[davidcmadrid]

Update since I posted this I found the following

hxxp://tinyurl.com/bpso38x

which includes a report of a "Sky guy" trying a 3M dish in Malaga and finding it didn't work.

Assuming the "Sky guy" is a professional installer it doesn’t look good for the Costa del Sol. Could it be worse than the Canaries?

That type of report has consequences just like the one of nothing on 4m in South Portugal , it would be interesting to confirm it finding the source. Reading the other posters reports for example there is somebody who says on Mallorca North Island she has day breakup on the moved channells but stable at night ( but the moral of the story is it sounds like there is signal there .. 1.35m / 1.4m being the limit , we already know there 1.65m works stable? ) However its a question of confirming them I guess since it could be easy to " repeat " something that isnt true. It is however a tiny piece of the puzzle for the Barcelona region.

 

[Mr Hoover]

That type of report has consequences just like the one of nothing on 4m in South Portugal , it would be interesting to confirm it finding the source.

Whilst I am not the source of "Nothing on a 4 Metre dish" in Southern Portugal I can assure you that looking at the vertical polarised signal in Southern Portugal using a well set up 2 metre dishand a spectrum analyser it would need another 6-7dB to get any viewable signal at all which takes one into the realms of a dish in excess of 4 metres.

To have any "Margin" at all a "Good" 6 metre or thereabouts dish would be needed and that doesn't allow for horizontal transponders seeming to be weaker.

Unfortunately we're in a signal "null" and it then comes back going towards the Canaries.

I did post all this in the early days of signals being reported from 2F a few weeks ago..

I hope the source of "Nothing on a 4 Metre dish" didn't purchase it especially for the
test.Looking at reception reports the thing might find a home on the Costa Del Sol which could have a slightly stronger signal (If signals from 2F can be referred to as strong in this part of Iberia) than Southern Portugal.

Hugh

 

[Analoguesat]

Ouch - so its going to be IP all the way for the Algarve from now on then!

 

[davidcmadrid]

Thanks Hugh , i missed the original post but its confirmation of what in reality is an awful Null. That seems to be the feature of this Satelite comparing it to 2D with Sharp and deep Nulls and few but strong lobes Running paralell to the NW SE axis going westerly off axis ,, there doesnt seem to be much in the way of sidelobes running Easterly. The reflector must look a battered saucepan do be doing all that shaping.

 

[Mr Hoover]

Ouch - so its going to be IP all the way for the Algarve from now on then!

Or a long piece of dish coax coming down from Figueira Da Foz or Madrid ;)

Let's see what the 2E spot beam antenna pattern is like,it may be a little bit kinder in this
direction....

 

[davidcmadrid]

I hope the source of "Nothing on a 4 Metre dish" didn't purchase it especially for the
test.Looking at reception reports the thing might find a home on the Costa Del Sol which could have a slightly stronger signal (If signals from 2F can be referred to as strong in this part of Iberia) than Southern Portugal.

I dont believe it was purchased especially , its on AnalogueSats map ,,it i believe was owned by a rebroadcast company called CPD , why they had one that size was a matter of speculaution ( my own theory was they got it cheap ) but a lot of people down South posting on Spanish forums were hoping that the 4m report was untrue.

 

[Mr Hoover]

Thanks Hugh , i missed the original post but its confirmation of what in reality is an awful Null. That seems to be the feature of this Satelite comparing it to 2D with Sharp and deep Nulls and few but strong lobes Running paralell to the NW SE axis going westerly off axis ,, there doesnt seem to be much in the way of sidelobes running Easterly. The reflector must look a battered saucepan do be doing all that shaping.

It would be nice to have some reports of people looking with analysers towards
Italy and Greece and seeing what is actually there,also North Africa...

A colleague of mine drove back to the UK from here some years ago and took a spectrum analyser and
60 cm dish stopping off at various places,the low signal area on 2D was very marked driving towards Madrid and then coming back up toward North Spain.

Hugh

 

[davidcmadrid]

Hugh,

Analoguesats map pretty much reflects all known reports from Spain , there are a few here and there that its not appropriate to relay for the danger of them being chineese whispers .. just getting reports outside of the expat area is like striking gold , never mind somebody with analyzers ,,i dont know if this will make any sense to you hxxp://www.forotdtprofesional.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2421 , it is made from a 1m dish. I have messaged him to double check this but have not heard anything back yet.

 

[Mr Hoover]

Hugh,

Analoguesats map pretty much reflects all known reports from Spain , there are a few here and there that its not appropriate to relay for the danger of them being chineese whispers .. just getting reports outside of the expat area is like striking gold , never mind somebody with analyzers ,,i dont know if this will make any sense to you hxxp://www.forotdtprofesional.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2421 , it is made from a 1m dish. I have messaged him to double check this but have not heard anything back yet.

Thanks
From that pic the original 2F signal jammed in by the 1N's looks quite strong there
compared with here!

 

[davidcmadrid]

Thanks
From that pic the original 2F signal jammed in by the 1N's looks quite strong there
compared with here!

Ok, sorry i misread your answer , understand you think there is something workable. I never used a spectrum analyzer but he didnt think there was much going on referring to the signal being mixed in with the noise of the lnb. I am fishing about to make contact with the guy who posted this among other things to confirm its a 1m.

 

[Huevos]

Confirmed report from Madrid 1M motorized dish all stable and watchable
Confirmed report from Madrid 80cm motorized no lock ( though one wonders if it was LNB to reciever without a motsat 3 in the middle what would happen )

Well if they are motorized the skew is going to be wrong for Astra series satellites for starters. Also it's not surprising the 80cm doesn't work; even on 1N that's cutting it fine.

 

[davidcmadrid]

Thanks Huevos, i understand why a motorized dish isnt the best tool for the job , skew aside ( though im given to understand that being 10 degrees of axis skew is actually less critical ) , theres a min of a 2db loss in motors with noise added , alignment may not be great ,, the overall impact of this I dont know , but currently the guy down in Jaen is taking the motor out of the circuit to see if LNB ===> Reciever will yield a positive result. This being said there is a positive 1m report from MAdrid with a motsat 3 1m setup. I thought it worth to post because it was confirmed and for areas where we have reports often its not clear if a smaller dish would " do " .. Porto was a prime example of that ,everybody thought 1.8m appx because of the report further North of there " breakup due rain " but in fact a 1.2m is working fine there.

 

[Huevos]

i understand why a motorized dish isnt the best tool for the job , skew aside ( though im given to understand that being 10 degrees of axis skew is actually less critical ) , theres a min of a 2db loss in motors with noise added , alignment may not be great ,, the overall impact of this I dont know , but currently the guy down in Jaen is taking the motor out of the circuit to see if LNB ===> Reciever will yield a positive result. This being said there is a positive 1m report from MAdrid with a motsat 3 1m setup

The skew is a big problem because it affects SNR. 2dB loss through the motor doesn't touch SNR at all. Skew difference from neutral on Astra series satellites is 7.5º.

BTW, Motsat 3 is a motor I would avoid. It has a plastic lid with no upper bearing.

 

[craignigel]

Would you please explain the skew problem with a motor on Astra 28E. Many thanks