Best receiver for fringe reception

emission

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Hello all

I live in Geneva, switzerland and I'm using a triax 110 to receive Nilesat channels, which I do receive but not as strong as I wish. I'm using a Nokia 9800S for the timebeing and I'm thinking of replacing it with a stonger/better one to secure better reception. I would appreciate any advice on the best receiver to use for enhancing the reception, as well as the best LNB in this regard, if any.

Thanks folks
 

Vipersan

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Hi emission ..
I believe this is the best offset dish lnbf for fringe reception

_http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?section=1&id=68

The inverto black ultra which comes in single twin and quad.
I have the same dish as you and find it outperforms most dishes of similar size .
I haven't fitted mine with the black ultra yet ..as they appear to be difficult to obtain in the UK ..but fully intend to asap
I'll leave it to others to recommend receivers ..as I have limited experience of whats available.
fwiw ..I have an old Nokia 9600 with a blindscan tuner ...which gain-wise puts many modern receivers to shame.
rgds
VS
 

emission

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Thank you Vipersan

I have used (Invacom Universal Single LNB 0.3dB Horn )

-http://www.satshop.tv/Invacom-Universal-Single-LNB-03dB-Horn-SNH-031

and it suppose to be high performance
but the result was disaster and as you see even the price is higher than the one which you mention

now I am using very normal one with no name on it !

I didn’t understand why you recommended this LNB ?
 

bigtee

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Some good lock threshold receivers I have experience of include:

(a) Fortec Star FSIR 5400 - its own signal quality meter lock threshold is about 33% - which, in a way, reflects how it secures a lock on a low signal when e.g. the Technomate 1500 would not;

(b) Phoenix Apollo MC-CI - this is another that secures lock at about the 33-35% mark; in fact it is similar to the Openbox mentioned earlier and indeed is often converted into an Openbox by using unofficial software

(c) The Technomate 5400 super is also very good and is better at locking low signals than its predecessor, the TM 1500 (which itself isn't that bad per se).
 

sonnetpete

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Hi Emission,

Just to reinforce what Vipersan said, I use an Inverto Black Ultra on a 1m Gibertini. As I write I'm receiving Nilesat verticals and horizontals, with no drop out or break up. I continue to get some of the stronger horizontal transponders during the day if we have clear weather. I would imagine with your location and slightly bigger dish you could get similar results. (no guarantees of course :-rofl2)

I have used _www.hm-sat-shop.de recently to purchase both a dish and receiver. They do stock the Black Ultra. Whilst they may not be quite the cheapest out there I can recommend their service very highly.

Good luck,

Pete
 

Vipersan

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Hi again ..
I only recommended this LNB because it appears to be highly regarded on this and various other boards as to its high gain /low noise capabilities ..
Many users believe it to be the best fringe reception lnb available for offset dishes..
There are many threads on the board searching for the 'holy grail' of lnbs ..
the Black Ultra appears at the top of this list in a lot of those threads.

here is one such clip >

Originally Posted by Huevos
"The Inverto Black Ultra has been amazing here. For my application the S/N with this LNB has been superior to all of the following: the Invacom C120 quad plus CM feed, the Smart Titanium, and the Darkgold, all known to be excellent choices. I haven't tried the Inverto Silvertech twin."

Do a search and read what is posted on the subject ..
..then its just a question of making up your mind ;)
 

emission

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Thank you all for reply

what about (ab com ipbox 9000 hd plus|) receiver

any bady have experience with it ?
 

Vipersan

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Hi emission..
No bad experiences with my IP9000HD so far ..
I had a friend mount seperate partitions on the Hard drive ...so that I could have multiple boot images on the box..
I currently run NLB (dgstation ) image in the box flash ..
And 2 x different Enigma 2 images on the Hard drive.
I absolutely love this box ...
HD pictures are stunning ..
,,and real easy menus to navigate.
My only complaint is that the E2 images dont control 2 motorised dishes 'correctly' ..
Occasionally the software gets confused as to which dish is in use ..and moves the wrong one.
This doesn't happen under NLB ..so I keep that software as the default in the flash.
Its a real 'geek' box ..and I wouldn't suggest it suitable for novices..as you have to be prepared for experimentation ..as the images develop.
An excellent choice though ..if you like to get involved with your stb ..and not just watch TV.
Mine is equipped with 2x HD dvbs2 tuners ..though you can swap one of these out for DVBT or DVBC should wish to.

The tuners are reasonably high gain ..for example ..I can get stable fringe reception of some Vertical Nilesat transponders for a few hours each day on a TD110 ...quite an achievement at my location..

any questions you have ..
feel free to ask ..and I'll help if I can
rgds
VS
 

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How is the tuner of DM8000? is IPBOX 9000 better?
 

emission

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Hello Vipersan

Thanks for the detailed very useful reply.
I still have a question though regarding the last part of your reply, the most important to me:

--The tuners are reasonably high gain ..for example ..I can get stable fringe reception of some Vertical Nilesat transponders for a few hours each day on a TD110 ...quite an achievement at my location--

This is what really matters to me, i.e. the sensitivity of the reception and the possibility to record on an external HD

Another question is: what about Humax receivers? I've heard they're very good boxes but not that performant at fringe reception, how would you compare the two in this regard?

Appreciate your help
 

Vipersan

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2 m+ Alcoa PF + BSC421 C-Band lnbf...
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Hi m8 ..
Regarding the tuner sensitivity issue ..
I really can't compare to much as I haven't access to other receivers.
What I will say is that some of our friends on this group were quite surprised to hear that I could get a lockable signal at 53.5 N ...the assumption being I was too far North in the UK ..
You could of course just put that down to the dish and lnb ...but I believe the tuner in the IPbox can take some credit ..
I tried the same channels on an old Echostar receiver ..and the IPbox outperformed it.

The only other receiver I have tried is my Humax HDCI2000 ..which also has a good tuner ..
It too produces good watchable pictures between 7:30 pm and 10:30 pm on the vertical transponders...but of course that stb has no provision for recording.
The IP9000HD has both ..
a good tuner(s) and you can fit an internal hard drive for your recording needs ..
recorded files can then ftp'd out off the drive for archiving.
Hope this helps
Perhaps others might comment regarding other receiver options ?
rgds
VS
 

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Inverto Black Ultra - Which of these are best single twin or quad?
 

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Hokksund said:
Inverto Black Ultra - Which of these are best single twin or quad?


  1. for offset antena use this lnb _http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?section=1&id=68

  1. for parabolic antena use this lnb _http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?section=1&id=51&cat=8
 

Telia

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I bought a ABCOM IPBOX9000 rev.3 and the tuner is very good, a little better than my friends DM8000s.

In the old IPBOX9000 they had Conexant tuners, but mine have the new Sharp tuners.
 

Vipersan

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Thats interesting info Telia ..
Have you actually compared tuners side by side ?
..and are the tuners completely interchangeable ?
If there is a considerable improvement in gain ...I might well be persuaded to replace one of my connexant HD tuners ..with a sharp ..
rgds
VS
 

dovercat

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Well I like the Manhattan XT-F receiver I own. Tuner appears to be very sensitive. At least in comparison to my aged Echostar ADP3000 and the Pace DS810XE I owned for a few months (extremely annoying user-interface / software and buggy)

With clear skys I get lots of horizontal and vertical transponders off Nilesat 7W with my Televes 1mtr dish and Televes 0.5dB LNB. MBC Action is one of the weakest signals I can receive, quality is just getting 46% or slightly over which gives perfect picture. Image brakes up into blocks at 45% or less so that is very boarderline reception. So just as well MBC channels are also on BADR 26E which is a much stronger signal and appears to be rainproof.

As a very rough guide to tuner quality I would look at if the manufacture claims it can only recieve 2000-45000 symbol rates that is not a good sign. It should be able to receive 1000-45000 symbol rates, which means it is able to get narrow bandwidth signals.

The other thing that made me choose the Manhattan was the relatively fast all symbol rates blindscan. But it is in 8MHz steps, you can opt for slower blindscans 2000-4000 symbol rates, or <2000 symbol rates, these are at 4MHz steps, and can spot the odd channel the faster blindscan misses. Ideally I would like the option of 1 or 2MHz steps, which it does not have.

Of course the Manhattan XT-F is no use if you are intrested in high definition or pay tv, or watching but not paying for pay tv.

As important, if not more important than reciever tuner sensitivity in my opinion is dish alignment, dish size and Lnb/feedhorn - Dish matching.
Dish wise I also have a Orbital 1mrt dish that is noticeably inferior to my Televes 1mtr. Lnb wise I have a Inverto Black Premimum 0.2dB, Golden Interstar 0.2dB, Blue un3011 ds1 0.7dB, and a MicroElectronics Technology Inc AP8-T2 golden 0.6dB LNB. On my Televes dish they all under perform the Televes 0.5dB LNB, with the AP8-T2 coming a close second, the rest lagging noticeably behind.

I take marketing of super sensitive tuners, exceptional gain dishes and exceptional lnbs with a pinch of salt. I was suprised to find out the Triax TD110 is not a 1.1mtr dish but a 1mtr dish and not a very big 1mtr dish, slightly smaller than my Televes 1mtr but larger than my Orbital 1mtr, and the Invertro Black Ultra 0.2dB typ LNB is actually 0.7dB max, but does claim an exceptionally low phase noise.

Since people have recommended the Inverto Black Ultra, does anyone know if it has the same feedhorn diameter as the Inverto Black Premium about 46mm. My other LNBs have feedhorns of around 55mm. My understanding is the smaller the feedhorn the wider the illumantion - more of the dish, the lnb looks at. But they are all suppose to be f/d 0.6 LNBs so why the difference. Since the focal distance of the dish should determine the lnb placement not the size of the LNBs feedhorn, which should match the dishes f/d ratio.
 

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Dovercat - your point about your Televes LNB matching your Televes antenna is well made, the feedhorn design should illuminate the antenna surface efficiently without 'seeing' beyond it ideally, to create a reasonable antenna pattern.

The old saying 'it's all in the twig' is so true. Good antenna designs minimise off-axis reception and deliver good x-pol (cross-polar) isolation, reducing interference. Reception is truly about C/NI (Carrier-to-Noise+Interference).

Likewise, your point about SCPC (Single Channel Per Carrier, ie under 6MS/s DVB-S) performance is very true, early tuner designs incorporated a SAW IF filter and/or Low-pass analogue filter ahead of the demodulator stage. The Nokia 9500/9600 has within it the original TV-COM Inc. (there's a name from history, 1994) tuner design card; it has these filters to assist the demodulator stage handle the full range from 2MS/s > 45MS/s.

I do wonder, if subsequent tuner designs rely too heavily on the digital domain filters to deliver demodulation performance. The 'zero-IF' designs may not handle strong carriers well at their input, when trying to select out a weaker carrier. I suspect they fall back on the inherent robustness of the DVB-S and now DVB-S2 modulation+FEC to reject unwanted mutual carriers, that's all well and good, but again it's C/N+I.

In the world of fringe reception, the weak wanted carrier can be amongst or alongside a forest of unwanted strong interferers which may have entered the antenna from the front or side, and both the wanted and unwanted can arrive at the same level into the demodulator stage. Every 0.5dB is precious.

Comparing real side-by-side receiver performance has to be done carefully, the same antenna+LNB, carrier, weather, day.

Happy 2010 everyone, 'let's hope it's a good one'.
 

BIH48

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The german satellite magazine Digital Fernsehen has very good tests of sat-receivers.
They measure the sensitivity of each receiver. Their tests are available on
"-www.digitalfernsehen.de/specials/dvb-s.html". There are more than 50 tests of receivers available.

The best figure seems to be the one of the Vantage HD 8000 which has an "Emfindlichkeit = -88 dBm", while for example the Dreambox DM7025 has -84 dBm.

From my location in Geneva, Switzerland I can just in good weather receive Sirius 4, 11747 V with my Vantage HD7100, a Gibertini dish 1.5m, Hama Universal TWIN LNBF Lypsi HQ. While the DM7025 is useless without a larger dish (1.8 or 2 m)?
 

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My personal stock of receivers is quite different from yours, but still, my info may be usable for someone.

The best one - StarTrack SR55X/Globo 4100C/Neosat SX1600AAA - using ALI 3329C+Sharp tuner combination. Fastest blindscan speed. For example, it blindscans hotbird 13E faster, then many other receivers in general way.

Next is SkyStar 2.3i card. Thanks to dedicated chip, low speed TP locking and blindscanning is excellent. Sensitivity is also good.

The next bunch is Openbox 500-540-800-810. 5xx series having slightly better sensitivity than 8xx series. Clarketech HD5000C+ is also in this row. While it is also capable of blindscan, and more importantly, in DVB-S2 also, it's scanning speed is very low.

SkyStar HD2 - real outperformer, weak sensitivity, often can't lock low SR TPs at all.

Comag SL65/2CI - absolutely piece of junk, very very low sensitivity.

Regarding sensitivity comparison, let me explain it more detailed. With above mentioned receivers, I never meet a situation, when one receiver does not pixelates at all, while another one is heavily pixelating. When the signal is weak, all receivers will drop frames/glitch sound, but some will drop less, some will drop more.

Today I was experimenting with 26E in heavy rain, using motor fitted 1meter ofset dish. I've selected TP 12303, as one with lowest level here, but with high SR, to avoid tuner frequency locking issue. SR55X provided dropped/paused frame each 30-40 second. Clarketech - each 8-10 second. SkyStar HD2 was constantly dropping about 20% of frames.
 

Telia

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Vipersan said:
Thats interesting info Telia ..
Have you actually compared tuners side by side ?
..and are the tuners completely interchangeable ?
If there is a considerable improvement in gain ...I might well be persuaded to replace one of my connexant HD tuners ..with a sharp ..
rgds
VS

I have not tried to change tuners as i had no reason for going with conexant as i need the best performing system.

I had many receivers but right now i also have a Pace 2600C1 Sky box which is claimed to have the best tuner of them all, it's a older Sharp tuner in that as well and i can say that my IPBOX outperforms it which surprised me.

My previous experience is that most receivers with Sharp tuners got the best sensitivity, they make great tuners, then it's up to the software makers to take advantage of it.

Just look at Enigma2 for DGS/IPBOX, the sensitivity is really bad compated to original and 3rd part images based on DGS.
 
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