Advice Needed Dual dish set-up

[Anaksanamune]

Hi all,

Hope this is the correct place (apologies otherwise - please move).
I am after general help, to see if what I am after is possible.

I have been asked to help design a system as I have a network engineering background, however satellite systems beyond a standard sky dish set-up are out of my current knowledge zone.

Currently the house in question has a sky box with the standard shotgun cable running through the loft and then down into the living room. As part of the house renovation more shotgun has been put into various rooms (currently 6) these cables all go back to the loft space.

What's been requested, if possible is a second dish on the house, probably a 36V H-H system (although not 100% on this yet). There would be a new receiver for this dish.

The ideal plan would be to have it so that the sky box and other receiver can be moved around the house and connected into any of the rooms and used simultaneously.
I'm not sure if this is possible, is there a multi-switch setup that can do this?
From my understanding, if a 36V system is used the positioner can be placed in the loft so there is only a single run of cable from that to the motorised dish as the positioner is controlled by the receiver via the co-ax.

Hope this is clear enough as I don't know all the technical terms yet, if you need me to clarify anything I'll do my best.

Thanks,
Anak

 

[archive10]

Hello Anak,

posting is indeed in the right place, and welcome to the Forum!

Yes you can put a multiswitch in the loft, and watch 28.2E based sat in all rooms. you need a 12 output one if you want the option of putting to put dial-reception Sky boxes in all rooms. Or you could use a Freesat box, and not need to pay the Sky subscription fees.

You can easily have a second receiver controlling a second dish. You can either cable the second receiver directly to the second dish, using either one or two cables from one of the rooms. Most likely you will then want to use one of the Coax cables in a room for Sky/Freesat, the other for the second dish.

The second dish can be fixed, and you may even hook it up with multiple LNBs, or it can be motorised with an H2H motor, in which case you just want a single LNB.
36V systems are really only needed for large dishes with polar mounts, depends on what you want to use it for. But most likely you wont need it.

There is the option of having a dual SAT input multiswitch, but these are slightly more expensive, this allows you on your non-Sky and Freesat receivers to select channels from either the first or the second dish, using DiSEqC switching control in the boxes. Note that Sky boxes do not allow this ATM, and many Freesat boxes don't either.
Connecting a second, motorised dish through the multiswitch is although technically possible with right equipment, not recommended.

Finally, without knowing more about your requirements, you might even be happy with a single dish with two LNBs on it, for, say, 28.2E and 19.2E. Both are strong and can be received on possibly even a 64cm (but better on an 80).

Can you be a little more specific on
- what sats you want to recieve?
- what you are going to use the H2H dish for?
- what dish do you already have (Sky zone 1?)
- how is the dish cabled into the loft (#cables)?

 

[Anaksanamune]

Hi,

I'm after Turksat and Arabsat if I can reach that far, basically looking in the direction , not sure exactly what else I could pick up.
Honestly it probably won't be a H2H dish, that is probably overkill I was more interested if it is possible to do what I suggested and have a positioner in the loft rather than run the extra cable to every room.
The current dish is a sky zone 1, it has the normal; I believe it is called "shotgun" cable - cable that is 2 coax cables that are stuck together for the full length.

The main thing is the use case which maybe I did not explain clearly so I will try and be a bit more verbose:

Lets assume for the moment (as this is basically the case) the following things:
There are 6 rooms, each have 2x cables to them that end in the loft.
There is a sky dish with 2x cables coming out of it (also going into the loft).
There is a single sky HD receiver.
You can currently get reception in any room but to do so you need to go up into the loft and physically connect the correct room cables to the dish cables.

What would be liked:
To add a second motorised dish.
To buy a second receiver.
To be able to use any room / receiver combination - I'll explain this a bit more...
The sky receiver always "talks" to the sky dish.
The new receiver will always "talk" to the motorised dish
But...
The receivers can be move around the house to get access from any of the rooms to "their" dish.
So normally for instance the new rec will live in the front room, and the sky rec in the dining room.
If someone wants to watch a programme upstairs they can pick up the receiver and go the bedroom #1 (and it will work without having to go into the loft and change cables).
Meanwhile person #2 want to watch sky somewhere else, so they can pick up that receiver and move to bedroom #2.
And so-forth such that either receiver can be used in any room.
Is this possible?

Thanks,
Anak

 

[davemurgtroyd]

Feeding two dish outputs to 6 rooms is not a major problem - using a 9 input 12 output multiswitch (the 9 th input allows you to add terrestrial TV, FM radio and DAB radio aerial inputs to the distribution to all rooms). Also both dishes would require quattro lnbs (although some multiswitches work with quad lnbs - quattro lnbs have 4 fixed outputs (one for each of the polarisation and frequency band combinations and quads have 4 which can all output any of the 4 combinations). In general quattro lnbs are more reliable and last longer than quads but there are none specifically made for Sky mini dishes - however it is also highly recommended that when using multiswitches that you install the next higher size dish to compensate for the inherent signal loss in the multiswitch. Motorising one of the dishes in this setup would mean you need to use a separate positioner and 36V jack to move the dish such as this - Satellite dish positioners. EZ2000, EZ6000, Superjack, 36V stand alone satellite dish positioners. . The 28E dish needs connecting to satellite inputs 1 as Sky boxes cannot switch to input 2. Note also with this setup the "new" receiver could also receive FTA channels from 28E. The positioner can be installed in the loft and controlled with a wireless IR extender such as this - One For All Xsight Touch Remote RF IR Extender URC8600

I have used the site linked to merely because the product descriptions etc are reasonably detailed but they are not the cheapest and some of this forum's advertisers may be able to supply.

 

[Anaksanamune]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, just to clarify a few things...
If I am using a 36V positioner then I will need an H2H set-up for the dish rather than a diesec motor? Can I diesec motor be used with this setup?
For my understanding, you use er eitha 36V positioner and H2H or a diesec motor and they are different systems.

Would the loft positioner need to be controlled with a remote or can it be controlled via diesec commands which I understand is normally possible (not that I have the most normal requirements).

 

[davemurgtroyd]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, just to clarify a few things...
If I am using a 36V positioner then I will need an H2H set-up for the dish rather than a diesec motor? Can I diesec motor be used with this setup?
For my understanding, you use er eitha 36V positioner and H2H or a diesec motor and they are different systems.

Would the loft positioner need to be controlled with a remote or can it be controlled via diesec commands which I understand is normally possible (not that I have the most normal requirements).

You would not easily or cheaply (if at all possible) be able to use DiSEqC switches and commands via the multiswitch. The 36V positioner would need to be controlled by IR remote. This is all down to your request for a motorised dish and for it to be available in all 6 rooms. With a fixed dish the setup would be a lot simpler with no need for the positioner and the IR remote extender - you could even fit one or two extra lnbs to the dish and use 13 or 17 input multiswitches such as these - Multiswitches. Triax multiswitches. EMP Centauri 5 input multiswitches. Powered multiswitches. Cascade multiswitches. Satellite Superstore UK..

You really need to sort out your requirements now and the budget you are prepared to spend - your requirements of six rooms with all combinations will not be cheap.

 

[archive10]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, just to clarify a few things...
If I am using a 36V positioner then I will need an H2H set-up for the dish rather than a diesec motor? Can I diesec motor be used with this setup?
For my understanding, you use er eitha 36V positioner and H2H or a diesec motor and they are different systems.

Would the loft positioner need to be controlled with a remote or can it be controlled via diesec commands which I understand is normally possible (not that I have the most normal requirements).

As I posted above, 36V systems is probably not what you want.
But it sounds like we need to get something straight:

DiSEqC motors aka H2H motors are devices that feed off the LNB power sent from the set-top box on the coax.
This current was originally intended to feed the LNBs and any switching circuits between the LNBs and the STB.
But if you stick a relatively small motor in there, and move it not too fast, you can drive the motor of this current.
The motor is controlled by sending DiSEqC commands ("goto previously stored position X"), or USALS commands ("goto x degrees E").
These motors are for smaller dishes (<100 cm), and the motors tend to move slowly.
The units come in a single piece with integrated mounting brackets etc.

The 36V systems are either polar mounts with separate actuators, or (large) H2H motors.
Polar mounts are mechanically larger than DiSEqC motors, mostly because they are mostly intended for larger dishes.
New polar mounts are far and few between, but you may find them on ebay.
That'll be mostly polar mounts for old prime-focus dishes, or Channel Master ones.
I don't believe there are any consumer oriented 36V H2H motors made today.
The reason being the DiSEqC motors are MUCH more convenient for normal direct-to-gome satellite reception.
DiSEqC motors are mechanically easier to use for end-users, and as the output from the sats these days are so strong that most consumers do not need dishes > 80cm (and will mostly do with <60 cm). So the need for large 36V systems are diminishing.

Going on what you write, you most likely DON'T need a 36V system.


Solution 1:

The rule of thumb is here (as anywhere else) to keep things as simple as possible, unless you want to end up as a SAT-nutter like the rest of us on this forum.

So, with your description of an installation, the simplest solution to your needs is as follows.

Assumptions:
a) you have only one Sky set-top box
b) it is NOT a Sky+ box

Actions:
1) Keep the 28.2E dish
2) Buy a new 80 cm dish + bracket, a DiSEqC motor (Dark motor or similar), a single LNB + some cable to go into the loft
3) Buy two 6-way signal splitters (8EUR each from german mail order)
4) Connect one output from the 28.2E dish to the input of one splitter, and connect cable 'A' of all shotgun cables to this splitter
5) Connect the output from the motorised dish to the input of the other splitter, and connect cable 'B' of all shotgun cables to this splitter
6) Move your boxes at will, but remember to always connect the Sky/Freesat box to output 'A' on the wall plates, and the receiver for the motorised dish to input 'B'. And don't get another Sky or Freesat box, this solution only works with a single box.

If I were to follow your description of your needs above, then this will do the trick.


Solution 2-3-x...:

Howver, if you do have Sky+, or want to use a Freesat box with two tuners, or want to have more than one Sky/freesat box, then you need a slightly different approach.

The best solution is to keep the motorised system separate from the Sky/Freesat one.
If you want to avoid going to the loft to change cables, then keep the motorised receiver in one room, and use one of the two cables to control the motor. This will save you going to the loft to switch.

In addition, if you have Sky+, then this solution will allow you to have dual feeds to most rooms except the one where the controlling receiver for the motorised system is located. You just need to put the two splitters to almost all rooms, except the one with the controlling receiver for the motorised system.

If you want to tuse multiple Sky/Freesat boxes, then you need to get a multiswitch, run two more cables from 28.2E dish, get a quad LNB, and then hook everything up as stated earlier. The motorised dish still should run on it's own dedicated cabling, it just makes life easier.