Help Required Hotbird + Astra 28.2E in one dish

Lazarus

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Excellent.

When you get some time, can you post up a photo of the new Installation, please?
 

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djdafy

A "cheap and cheerful", and very easy, solution that actually works - though it ought to, and glad that it did !:)

Good luck from here-on, and do come back again if you need help in the future
 

satpippa

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As mentioned here a 88cm dish is ideal for your set up as you stand in front of the dish the sky is reversed behind you 28.2 east + 19.2 east +13 east + 7 east or 5 east with the 4th Lnb

This system gradually evolved from 2 to 4 Lnb's I have since motorised this 88cm mesh dish,

I hope this illustrates what is possible.

---5 east----------------13 east------------------19.2 east........................28.2 east
View attachment 99716

View attachment 99717
---28.2 east------------19.2 east-----------------13 east-------------------5 east

I realize this thread is very old but I'm trying to setup a similar system and getting very confused.
I have a triax TD78 (80cm) and the Triax multi lnb holder, but I'm not sure how to position the LNBs for Astra 2 and Hotbird.

Looking at the sky (giving the back to the dish and with the dish LNB arm pointing to Astra 19.2) where would my LNBs need to be positioned for Astra2 28.2 and Hotbird 13?

Again, sorry if it seems such a dumb question but it's driving me crazy.

Thanks for any help.
 

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The dish acts as a mirror:
So the more easterly satellite (28e) LNB must be put more westerly on the multifeedrail,
and vice versa for 13e.

Greetz,
A33
 

satpippa

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The dish acts as a mirror:
So the more easterly satellite (28e) LNB must be put more westerly on the multifeedrail,
and vice versa for 13e.

Greetz,
A33

A33, Many thanks for the superfast reply.

So, still looking at the sky (giving the back to the dish and with the dish LNB arm pointing to Astra 19.2) the LNB for Astra2 28.2 goes to the right of the LNB arm and the LNB for Hotbird 13 goes to the left of the LNB arm?

Yes I am that much of a noob :oops:...
 

a33

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Yes that is absolutely right, as you are north of the equator I presume.

I don't want to make it more complicated for you, but if you were south of the equator it would be the other way round, because when looking in the direction of the equator (where the satellites are, in the 'Clarke-belt, above the equator), 'east' would be to the right, instead of to the left as here on the northern hemisphere.

Welcome to the forum, by the way! :)

greetz,
A33
 
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satpippa

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Yes that is absolutely right, as you are north of the equator I presume.

I don't want to make it more complicated for you, but if you were south of the equator it would be the other way round, because when looking in the direction of the equator (where the satellites are, in the 'Clarke-belt, above the equator), 'east' would be to the right, instead of to the left as here on the northern hemisphere.

Welcome to the forum, by the way! :)

greetz,
A33

Thanks for the warm welcome :D

I've tried again today but still no Joy, can't find pretty much anything...

This is what my (very much work in progress) setup looks like at the moment:


This is a screenshot of the phone resting on the LNB arm while running SAT Director for Android
Screenshot_20180222-133920r.png

The Triax multi LNB
20180222_133016r.jpg

The elevation is set to 25.1° as this website gives me these values for Astra 2 when I enter my address.
Dishpointer.JPG

Should I set the elevation to what it recommends for Astra 1 instead (28.1°)?

Thanks again for all the help.

Satpippa
 

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Hard to tell from the photos, due to perspective, but the Elevation is not that of the dish face, but the "look angle".

As the dish is an "offset" type, then the dish face should be set to calculated Elevation minus Offset angle..

The offset is generally around 25deg, leaving the dish face nigh on vertical.

Can you confirm this is the case?

In any event, you'll need to tweak it to account for small errors in mount verticality etc.
 

satpippa

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Hope this helps:

20180222_163045r.jpg
20180222_163056r.jpg
20180222_135657r.jpg

It is set at 25° and the dish is almost vertical.
 

Lazarus

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Lazarus

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I see you have neither LNB at the focal point, yet the dish pointing to 28E (or is it? Not sure, as you mentioned 19E earlier, but one of your pics shows the figures for 28E) : That will never work - especially if you've actually got 19E azimuth and 28E elevation?

What you need is either to place the 28E LNB at the focus, peak the dish, then leave the dish alone and play with the offset LNB

or (better compromise)

To align the dish to a strong satellite between 13E and 28E (eg 19E or 23.5E) initially using an LNB at the focal point, then shift both LNBs on the rail to get the desired Satellites, again leaving the dish alone. The 28E figures are then irrelevant and you use eg the 19E Elevation and Azimuth as calculated.

I suggest you align to 28E alone first - for practice - then shift the alignment to 19E or 23.5E, then offset both LNBs
 

satpippa

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I see you have neither LNB at the focal point, yet the dish pointing to 28E (or is it? Not sure, as you mentioned 19E earlier, but one of your pics shows the figures for 28E) : That will never work - especially if you've actually got 19E azimuth and 28E elevation?

What you need is either to place the 28E LNB at the focus, peak the dish, then leave the dish alone and play with the offset LNB

or (better compromise)

To align the dish to a strong satellite between 13E and 28E (eg 19E or 23.5E) initially using an LNB at the focal point, then shift both LNBs on the rail to get the desired Satellites, again leaving the dish alone. The 28E figures are then irrelevant and you use eg the 19E Elevation and Azimuth as calculated.

I suggest you align to 28E alone first - for practice - then shift the alignment to 19E or 23.5E, then offset both LNBs

My LNB arm is pointing at 19.2, I tried to get the LNBs in offset to point to 28.2 and 13 but could not get any lock. Tried also with one LNB close to the focus but could not get 19.2 lock, but that is probably because the angle I set for the dish was for astra 2 (25°).
 

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Ok.

1. Set the dish elevation to that for 19.2E
2. Fit only one LNB, at the focal point (ie not offset)
3. Select Astra 1 and finish aligning the dish
4. Do not move the dish again!
5. Offset the original LNB and adjust it on the rail for 28E
6. Add the second LNB and adjust it on the rail for 13E


You'll get there! :)
 

satpippa

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Ok.

1. Set the dish elevation to that for 19.2E
2. Fit only one LNB, at the focal point (ie not offset)
3. Select Astra 1 and finish aligning the dish
4. Do not move the dish again!
5. Offset the original LNB and adjust it on the rail for 28E
6. Add the second LNB and adjust it on the rail for 13E


You'll get there! :)

Thanks!
I'll give it a try tomorrow or Saturday if it doesn't rain.

Cheers,

Satpippa.
 

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Having used (and sworn at) one of those Triax brackets before, due to the design of the bracket, I think it's impossible to get an LNB at the focal point of the dish. Do as Lazurus suggests and get your 19.2 LNB as close to focus as possible and adjust your dish for best results. The 28E LNB will go to the right of the 19.2 one as you've been advised, however the bar of the bracket will need to be swivelled (raised) to get a signal. LNB postioning and bracket elevation will require some trial and error though. Positioning the 13E LNB should be a little easier. Personally I think there are brackets which are easier to adjust than this one......my Triax one is in the 'spares box'.
 
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1. Set the dish elevation to that for 19.2E
2. Fit only one LNB, at the focal point (ie not offset)
3. Select Astra 1 and finish aligning the dish
4. Do not move the dish again!
5. Offset the original LNB and adjust it on the rail for 28E
6. Add the second LNB and adjust it on the rail for 13E

Spot on. But as I sense that even getting 19.2E feels like a challenge, allow me to elaborate on that bit:

My LNB arm is pointing at 19.2, I tried to get the LNBs in offset to point to 28.2 and 13 but could not get any lock. Tried also with one LNB close to the focus but could not get 19.2 lock, but that is probably because the angle I set for the dish was for astra 2 (25°).
When aligning the dish for 19.2E, you can't rely on dishpointer.com or alignment apps to be precise enough.
It will give you a good starting directions, but the dish needs to be adjusted carefully.
And that needs to be done by hand, and fine-tuned in order get maximum signal - this is important for multi-LNB setup.
A good thing, though, is that 19.2E is extremely strong, so it is one of the easier sats to adjust to,

You need to attach a meter, a low-cost beeper, or even an STB that you can observe while adjusting the dish.

Do you still have the single-LNB bracket that presumably came with the dish?
Then put that on instead of the multi-feed, and adjust dish to 19.2E.
(If not, then it is alright, it it still doable by putting an LNB on the bracket just snuggling along side of the arm, but put the LNB on the *LEFT*-hand side of the LNB-arm when looking from reflector towards the LNBs. This is because you want the dish to be pointing roughly mid-way between 28.2E and 13E, which is something like 20.5E. For this to work, 19.2E should be slighty to the *right* of the arm, so the LNB goes on the LEFT as the reflector is a mirror - as a33 says above.)

Steps to adjust

If you use meter or STB, choose a frequency in in the stronger groups, e.g. ZDF on 11362H.
If you use a beeper, then find strongest signal close to the dispointer direction, then fine-tune while looking at the signal bars on the telly.
(If you can't see the telly from the dish, have someone watching the telly and either shout or use mobile phones with a hands free - don't fall off the ladder!.)

1. First you set the elevation as per bracket (this requires the pole to be more or less plumb). For 19.2E.
(You've already done that.)
2. You now loosen the backmost brackets, and point the dish in the general direction that dishpointer tells you to. For 19.2E
(You seem to have done this too.)
This will probably not give you a signal straight away, but it's a starting point.
3. Now you move the dish in a slow movement left and right of where dishpointer told you to look.
The signal strength should go up and down, and you need to centre on the strongest peak.
4. When centered, fasten the bolts so the dish doesn't easily move left or right (this needs to be fairly tight on the Triax).
5. Now maximise the signal strength by adjusting the elevation of the dish.
Do this by loosening the elevation bolts on the bracket, and then adjusting the elevation / angle of the dish until you get an even stronger signal. Then tighten the elevation bolts again.
6. Note that on the Triax this requires a bit of step-wise approximation, as the angle invariably changes slightly when you tighthen the elevation bolts.

You should now have a dish poiting at 19.2E, and you should be able to receive most channels there.
Tighten all bolts on the dish bracket, and if you put the single-LNB bracket on, now put the multi-LNB one back on.
Now continue as Lazarus says above.
 
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a33

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Well, you've had lots of advice now, about finding a satellite (or finding 19e).
I don't want to confuse you, but would like to add the following.

Personally, I would first buy or lend a (cheap) satellite beeper; as finding a (any) satellite can be tricky sometimes, let alone a specific satellite.
The advantage of a satellite beeper is, that when you found A satellite, you can check with programm lists allready within your receiver, or with a scan of that satellite (using lyngsat, kingofsat, flysat etc), which satellite that is, and then decide if you need to go left or right/ up or down to find the looked-for satellite.
But maybe you're lucky and you'll be finding 19e, 13e, 28e or 23e or so without a beeper.
(Using a sat-beeper, I wouldn't mind trying satfinding with a by-rider LNB. You can sweep the dish left and right and will probably find a satellite signal somewhere; and from there decide if you have to search higher/lower, more left/right. But you can choose yourself how to do this.)

Another issue is setting up a multifeedrail with no 'central' LNB. The issue being, that when you found one satellite, to find the other you have to finetune the whole dish again when you have trouble finding/finetuning the second satellite.
If you set the multifeedrail to the proper skewness before searching/finding the first satellite on the rail (not being the central satellite), the finding and finetuning of the second satellite will be a matter of only sliding the LNB along the rail, and the first LNB doesn't need any afterwards finetuning again.

For your location the rail skewness for 28e and 13e is (about) -16.1 degrees from the horizontal, with the 13e LNB lower than the 28e LNB (remember the mirror-mechanism!).
If the TRIAX-rail doesn't allow that skewness at the moment, then turn the metal part of the rail upside down and a greater skew will be possible. (The small misadjustment of LNB-height as a result of that is not important.)

Good luck tomorrow!
greetz,
A33
 

satpippa

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Well, you've had lots of advice now, about finding a satellite (or finding 19e).
I don't want to confuse you, but would like to add the following.

Personally, I would first buy or lend a (cheap) satellite beeper; as finding a (any) satellite can be tricky sometimes, let alone a specific satellite.
The advantage of a satellite beeper is, that when you found A satellite, you can check with programm lists allready within your receiver, or with a scan of that satellite (using lyngsat, kingofsat, flysat etc), which satellite that is, and then decide if you need to go left or right/ up or down to find the looked-for satellite.
But maybe you're lucky and you'll be finding 19e, 13e, 28e or 23e or so without a beeper.
(Using a sat-beeper, I wouldn't mind trying satfinding with a by-rider LNB. You can sweep the dish left and right and will probably find a satellite signal somewhere; and from there decide if you have to search higher/lower, more left/right. But you can choose yourself how to do this.)

Another issue is setting up a multifeedrail with no 'central' LNB. The issue being, that when you found one satellite, to find the other you have to finetune the whole dish again when you have trouble finding/finetuning the second satellite.
If you set the multifeedrail to the proper skewness before searching/finding the first satellite on the rail (not being the central satellite), the finding and finetuning of the second satellite will be a matter of only sliding the LNB along the rail, and the first LNB doesn't need any afterwards finetuning again.

For your location the rail skewness for 28e and 13e is (about) -16.1 degrees from the horizontal, with the 13e LNB lower than the 28e LNB (remember the mirror-mechanism!).
If the TRIAX-rail doesn't allow that skewness at the moment, then turn the metal part of the rail upside down and a greater skew will be possible. (The small misadjustment of LNB-height as a result of that is not important.)

Good luck tomorrow!
greetz,
A33

Hi,

thanks to all of you for the good advice. I finally made some progress:

I spent good part of the morning searching for Astra 1 (19.2E) without success, I then tried to look for Astra 2 (28.2E) and finally found it.
From there I played with the LNB on the other side of the triax multi bliock arm and and was able to get a fix on Hotbird (13°).

Here are some pics and considerations:

The Triax multi LNB block arm:
20180224_145635r.jpg

Screenshot of GPS assist on android (phone on dish LNB arm)
Screenshot_20180224-145844.png

Screenshot of Sat Director on Android (phone on dish LNB arm)
Screenshot_20180224-145931r.png

Not sure why but to get a signal I had to increase the angle to what on my Triax sat scale says is 32° rather than the 25° advised by Dishpointer for my location
20180224_150112r.jpg

Astra2 signal from Satlink meter
20180224_150103r.jpg

Hotbird signal from Satlink meter
20180224_145958r.jpg

The Astra 2 signal is ok but the Hotbird seems a bit weak.

Do you think I should keep fiddling with the whole thing, maybe keep looking for Astra 1 and see if I get better results, or be satisfied?
 

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Good work!

The main issue is that the Hotbird LNB is offset a long way and the Astra one hardly at all.

That automatically means the Hotbird outcome isn't going to be ideal.

For best overall results, you need to move the dish five or six degrees further west (less east!) in order to allow both of the LNBs to be offset by a modest amount. That will be far more efficient.

So, push the dish a bit further west, raise the elevation very slightly (if necessary) and adjust the LNBs to compensate for the new alignment ie Hotbird closer to centre than it is now and Astra further away.
 

Lazarus

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As for the apparent elevation, I wondered if you'd assembled the backplate the right way up, so have just checked on my own Triax and it looks ok. There should be a differently graduated scale on the other side of the backplate and you assemble the dish so you can adjust within an elevation range suitable for your latitude.

My TD110 has c. 10 to 45 on one scale and 25 to 60 on the other.

What does the other scale on your TD78 permit?
 
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