Lobby to allow access to BBC domestic channels abroad!

[Richard Hunt]

Hello.

I am a new member who has joined as a result of the move to Astra 2e. Since there is no sign yet of a reasonable technical solution, I am ready to start a lobby to change the situation by non-technical means.

I start from the premise that a lot of people in mainland Europe would, like me, happily pay the TV licence fee in order to get access to BBC domestic output. It seems to me relatively simple in principle. The BBC would offer digital licence cards. They would of course have to re-encrypt the satellite signals. That's where the commercial issues come into play. The BBC claimed that they saved £85m over five years in encryption fees to BSkyB when they went in the clear. Since they used the word 'estimated' at the time, i have just sent an electronic Freedom of Information request demanding clarity on the exact fees they really paid Sky. You can follow it here:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/encryption_fees_paid_to_sky

That's just for starters. Of course if anyone knows of previous discussions in this area, that is a big reason for me to post here.

Thanks!

RH

 

[Lazarus]

The TV Licence, despite the fact that it helps fund the BBC, actually Licences UK Residents to use equipment, in the UK, capable of receiving TV. Any TV.

So you'd need to completely change the Licensing and Funding models.

There is already pressure from some quarters to go to a Subscription model, however.

Also, reverting to Encryption has massive connotations for the installed base of TV receiving equipment and the BBC's own Platform (in conjunction with other partners), Freesat, is predicated upon the Free to Air principle.

 

[Fisty McB]

I start from the premise that a lot of people in mainland Europe would, like me, happily pay the TV licence fee in order to get access to BBC domestic output. It seems to me relatively simple in principle. The BBC would offer digital licence cards. They would of course have to re-encrypt the satellite signals.

And kill Freesat dead in the process.

Sorry but it's a non-runner - BBC domestic services are only aimed at viewers in the UK with a few small exceptions made e.g. when they put radio stations back on a pan-Euro beam on 2A after first shifting services to 2D. Anyone receiving it outside of the UK, IoM & Channel Islands benefits from incidental overspill wherever satellite or terrestrial (cable is a separate matter). It's now just the case that this has been tightened up a bit more with the move from 1N to 2E.

 

[Captain Jack]

Isn't Freeview already offering official ways to view its channels abroad via IPTV providing you are a licence payer in the UK?

Where is it... ah...

blog_182.htm
hostmyuktv.com/faq.html

£35 a month though is nearly what I pay for Sky channels though...

 

[Lazarus]

I wonder if the legality of that solution has been seriously and properly tested yet?

 

[Captain Jack]

No idea - but it's a start. With increasing number of high speed connections (though not where I am), it's becoming more attractive to just do it yourself using the likes of Slingbox or Vulkano.

 

[Fisty McB]

It doesn't look like an approved Freeview solution. Some of it looks a bit suspect - the issue on the TV licence AFAIK is moot as it's only applicable to the UK only. Also a licence only goes by a premises, not per receiver.
A private slingbox type solution for domestic viewing would likely be OK, but on a commercial level I don't think I could trust it especially given the costs involved. If your receiver is sited in a location with FTTC available like BT Infinity where upload speeds of up to 20Mbps are available, I'd say it would be around the same monthly cost or less for the Internet connection in the UK.

 

[Richard Hunt]

Thanks for your replies so far. All the arguments against are useful, since I will need to take them into account before going "live"

TiVu I appreciate the points you make.

However as you say, there is pressure for a subscription model anyway. Personally, I favour the licence system, but subscription from overseas users can take the pressure off the domestic licence system.

Maybe I should not talk about a digital licence fee, but an international subscription. Surely the principal is established since people around the world get BBC channels as part of their cable subscriptions.

The market is bigger than most people in the UK might imagine. My installers estimate that there are about 2,000 2m dishes in Prague houses, and they are convinced that they are nearly all Brits watching BBC. Most of them are like me, they have shelled out a grand or more for something they consider to be an eyesore in their gardens. A £150 a year sub is any easy sell to such people. There are more than half a million British with second homes in France. Heaven knows what the figure is in Spain now. The world is changing. Why shouldn't the payment and delivery model change to take account of that, especially when we are talking about allowing people to purchase one of the very few world class products which Britain still has to offer the world? Then of course there is the EU stance which I believe is supportive of the principal of broadcasting without borders. If there are ways to manage the rights issue, via subscription, the EU might expect broadcasters to use those ways.

 

[mickwig]

Hi Richard, do you not think it is a bit late for changes. Would it not have been smarter tostart the move before money and time has been spent to cook up the current scheme with no subscrition but a very narrow beam in order to keep license fees that are beeing paid to the producers of materials low.

Now everything is in place it will be hard to convice the people and institution concerned to change it all back to how it was before Astra 2D, which is quite a while ago.

 

[davemurgtroyd]

Your proposals are way to late - broadcasting encrypted via satellite is now a non-starter. Not only would the BBC et al have to pay for encryption but also all the many millions the BBC and ITV have invested in freesat be thrown in the bin, the increase in fees paid for rights from content providers and also the hundreds of millions that UK viewers have invested very recently in freesat and FTA receivers that would be useless. Sorry your proposal is yet another from expats who seem not to have the slightest clue about all the implications of what seems to them a simple solution. Your time would be better spent urging BBC Worldwide to increase their content and services in your market - it is one of their main functions to provide UK TV content in other markets. So far it has been not very successful in Europe because of the easy availability of UK services but the time is now ripe for them to expand into markets such as yours.

BTW the EU TV sans frontieres is about receiving FTA broadcasts across borders without legal or blocking restrictions and NOT about broadcasting across Europe.

 

[Fisty McB]

Firstly, the domestic output of the BBC is meant to be protected from profit motives. There are areas where BBC domestic output are provided on a subscription basis - but in these places there is history of people in these countries many years ago receiving UK TV terrestrially with relays on cable, namely Ireland, Belgium & the Netherlands. In these cases companies offering BBC services pay BBC Worldwide costs to help cover programming rights to be shown in these territories.

The old Solus card scheme itself was never intended either to be used outside the UK or, at least by the BBC, as a permanent solution and was very weak in providing protection for certain distribution rights. The spot beams, even being FTA, provided better geographic security.

Secondly, why should many UK viewers face disruption to their viewing and possibly buy new equipment to accommodate non-UK viewers?

Thirdly, the cost of such a scheme would also have to help cover distribution rights, the cost of encryption, the provision of handling viewing cards, call centres etc.

As I see it, there is no tangible benefit to UK viewers here. That doesn't mean I'm not unsympathetic to British ex-pats in this case, but I feel that such a provision of service should use an alternative set up to that at 28E, should benefit many ex-pats across the world (not just in mainland Europe), only available to British passport holders.

Many UK expats have had it OK for quite a while now in getting domestic TV from home, many other nationalities are not so fortunate. For example Irish expats have no service outside of Ireland for RTE. Some in Britain use Irish Sky subscriptions, but no FTA or even FTV solution exists.

 

[Richard Hunt]

Thank you all for your further comments, including those which are hostile to my proposals. If I may answer several at once:
1. Yes, it would have been much better to start this campaign earlier. But Greg Dyke rather blindsided us, didn't he?
2. I fully agree that no proposal should in any way inconvenience Uk viewers, and will have to think about that - although I have a Freesat question below, which I'm sure you can all answer.
3. The cost of rights. This is exactly why I propose a paid subscription model. The BBC would then know very precisely how many extra viewers they have so they can negotiate tights on a real, and relatively small number, as opposed to 'the whole of Europe'.
4. I agree that the domestic output of the BBC should be protected from the profit motive. However you can hear all the siren voices in the UK against the licence fee. How many times I've wanted to say, you don't want to pay the licence fee, fine let me pay it for you if I can have your BBC output here without some ridiculous dish. Surely it is better to maximise overseas revenue to ease the domestic pressure on the licence fee. And wouldn't it be better if all those lucky Brits in Paris or Amsterdam would have to pay something to watch domestic BBC?

If I may ask you to relieve my ignorance about Freesat. Is it there because a proportion of the UK population can only receive a satisfactory signal via satellite? If so, does anybody know how many households fall into that category?

 

[Lazarus]

Freesat was originally conceived when at least 15% of UK Residents couldn't get DTT.

Since then, we've got rid of Analogue, enabling the DTT service to be greatly improved.

However, there are still significant numbers of dead spots (Chiefly rural and caused by topographical issues) where there is no usable signal. I myself was in one until only a couple of weeks ago (I resolved it by lateral thinking that most punters wouldn't want to bother with) and there are yet more areas, including urban situations, where only a restricted service (Freeview Light) can be received.

There have been unintended (but nevertheless predictable) benefits in that many former BSky subscribers have become Freesat users as they began to realise they were being screwed by the Corporate Machine ie They only ever watched PSBs but nobody had told them they didn't have to pay. That's an oversimplification, but I'm sure you get the idea!

 

[Lazarus]

And, on the subject of Rights, much of BSkyB's output is Rights limited and they are supposed to protect that by Encryption and control of who they sell Cards to.

That works, doesn't it?


Not!

 

[Analoguesat]

Never going to happen - the BBC themselves admit expats are totally irrelevant when it comes to coverage - theres a link to the relevant document here on the forum somewhere. In fact ISTR I posted it.

The BBC ITV C4 & C5 requested the design of the new satellites specifically to limit overspill, do you think they would have asked SES to design the new craft that way if they had any intention of ever going over to a widebeam transmission.

And one last important thing to remember - having the BBC encrypted is a gnats whisker away from a future hostile government sending them fully subscription.

There are plenty of ways of expats to still be watching the BBC's output depending on just how much money you are willing to spend.

 

[Analoguesat]

If I may ask you to relieve my ignorance about Freesat. Is it there because a proportion of the UK population can only receive a satisfactory signal via satellite? If so, does anybody know how many households fall into that category?

In my area (Scottish Borders) 52% of the population only get "Freeiew Lite" - with less than half the available channels

The main tx is Selkirk and the towns and villages are all tucked down in valleys and behind hills so almost every other town has its own little "FL" repeater

 

[Fisty McB]

To follow on from A/S, where I live also has a lot of people where the commercial multiplex reception is quite limited. For example, Strabane has a population of around 13,000 yet can only get the Freeview "Lite" service, next to no hope getting commercial multiplexes. An aunt of mine once lived in a place where NI TV reception was very poor (though RTE across the border was fine!) and she got a Freesat from Sky set up before the other Freesat was launched.

Freesat itself introduced a few things over the years to many people across the UK before they became available terrestrially in many places, like HD from the BBC and ITV. They also have channels available that aren't on Freeview. Most Freesat viewers that I know of are quite happy with the platform.

 

[Analoguesat]

I live ~2km from the Galashiels transmitter which is located at Langlee just to the north of the town.

I cant see it from the house as theres a small hill right in the way, and there is sod all signal available off it. In analogue days I could sometime get a very weak snowy signal off it

Selkirk is behind woodland here and after DSO I couldnt get the aerial high enough to get a decent signal.

So it was either pay a fortune to have a big aerial mast or array installed or just go satellite with an inconspicuous dish in the garden.

No contest - I removed the aerial and slung it in the scrap metal bin up at the tip & we went satellite only. And now the dish is well hidden in amongst all the others

 

[Archived-1]

No contest - I removed the aerial and slung it in the scrap metal bin up at the tip & we went satellite only. And now the dish is well hidden in amongst all the others

Love it

 

[timo_w2s]

What I'd be more than happy with is keeping all existing BBC channels as they are now FTA on a UK spot and creating a new encrypt package on a widebeam transponder with BBC 1 Europe, BBC 2 Europe, BBC 3 Europe, BBC 4 Europe and BBC News + radio stations. They could blank out a few films and sports rights that aren't cost effective to broadcast to Europe too this way. Then charge expats a monthly/yearly fee. Even restrict it to just British nationals if they are worried about ruining their BBC Entertainment packages. The Swiss can limit their TV to Swiss nationals, why can't we?

We used to have BBC TV Europe on Intelsat 25 years ago which showed live BBC 1 or BBC 2 programmes or teletext if both channels where showing imported programming. It was doable then, so it really should be doable now in the 21st century!!!