Motorised dish not moving with lnb plugged in

A

Anaksanamune

New Member
Messages
7
My Satellite Setup
In progress.
My Location
Southampton
Hi all,

I have a dish with a Primesat PR3600B motor that I am trying to get set up with my system however I am having issues with the motor not turning.
On its own I can get movement however when I plug my LNB in I get no movement on the dish.

As it is initial setup I have not proven the LNB works however it is reasonably new.
The lnb is an octo LNB with 4 channels going direct to my vu+ ultimo 4k and the other 4 channels go into a distribution switch for the rest of the house.
The motor driver cable goes direct to the Vu+ (I know that I only have motor control from that and the other devices will be along fr the ride with whatever is picked).
The lnb is a Primesat Platinum octo LNB.

Any ideas where to start looking to fix this?
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
You have the coax from the prime receiver (the vu+ ultimo) going directly to the motor's RX or receiver input right?

And if it moves with out the LNB attached then there may be problems with the motor to LNB coax jumper, try a new one.

Also make sure that the coax jumper from the motor goes to the #1 port on the LNB.

Also how long a run of coax from the receiver to the motor and what type?? Does it have the copper plated steel type center conductor ? A quick test for that would be a small magnet, if it sticks to the center conductor its the CPS type, this type may have too much DC voltage drop on a long run, it may be able to move the motor without anything else attached, but when connecting the LNB and additional switch the voltage drop may be too much and the motor will not turn.

And check the DC voltage and current requierment for the octo LNB, the combination of both the motor and LNB/switch may be too much for the receiver to handle, most receivers I know of can only supply 500 mA of DC current, the motor when moving may need up to 400 mA, the LNB and switch may put this over the top, thus the motor when it trys to move will be starving for current, this will cause the system DC voltage to drop, if it drops below the motors lowest voltage specification it wont move.
 
A

Anaksanamune

New Member
Messages
7
My Satellite Setup
In progress.
My Location
Southampton
The receiver can supply up to 400mA.
I think the motor uses up to 300mA although I am not certain, I have no idea what current the LNB uses.

The cable is all high quality WF100 solid copper cable, probably a 10 - 15m run.

I will try a new motor - LNB jumper.
I didn't think there was a difference between any of the inputs on the LNB, how do I know what port is #1?
If it is a problem with current draw what are my options?
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
OK coax sounds good, the new jumper may help...Maybe..

I would check with the manufacture for the LNB output numbers, and as far as the DC current, if it's the problem then all you can do is go with a receiver that can run at a higher then 400 mA LNB current supply.

Some receivers use +13 volts and +18 volts to switch between transponders, most motor's will run OK at the lower voltage, but the DC current draw may be a bit higher, you have no way to test this as using most consumer test equipment would shut things down, as you can't test an active RF circuit with out some special equipment.

Can you move the motor with the receiver without the LNB connected?????
 
A

Anaksanamune

New Member
Messages
7
My Satellite Setup
In progress.
My Location
Southampton
Yes, motor runs fine without the LNB.

Really don't want to change receiver it cost a considerable amount and is brand new. I would assume that they should be made for this its not exactly an extreme use case is it... Do current boosters exist?
 
Lazarus

Lazarus

Tout Rond Bon Oeuf
Staff member
Messages
25,345
My Satellite Setup
80cm Motorised.
Several small Dishes.
Much else.
My Location
North York Moors
.. Do current boosters exist?

Some Receivers have a special setting for longer cable lengths, but I'm not familiar with that model. Have a gander at the menus.

Try selecting a Horizontally polarised target TP - this is what I do on the odd occasions when my motor declines to move.
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Yes, motor runs fine without the LNB.

Really don't want to change receiver it cost a considerable amount and is brand new. I would assume that they should be made for this its not exactly an extreme use case is it... Do current boosters exist?
Current boosters exist but not for a satellite system like we use.

Can you try it with the LNB connected but without the attached switch??? What brand/type of switch is it??
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Also can you try a singe output LNB if you have one?
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Or try just one input on the receiver???
 
Tururu

Tururu

Assembled with recycled parts
Messages
2,575
My Satellite Setup
90cm motorised dishes(98x90)+fixed+multiLNB+24Unicable.
Currently 55 satellites, 61°West to 57°East.

DB800S-HD VU+DUO2, VU+Ultimo4K, TBS5925, OctagonSX88.
Recycled as the owner.
My Location
North of Madrid (28703 Spain) -3Km of IKEA (40.545847, -3.612012).:-)
The FBC tuner has no option to upload 1 volt for long cables.
To rule out a LNB consumption problem, if you have an old LNB, change it and verify that it works well.
It does not give problem the tuner that has that deco, I have it with 60 meters of low loss cable, SG2100A 300mAmp + IBU 120mAmp = 420mAmp, it moves well.
It is configured with usals or DiSEqC 1.2. the receiver VU + Ultimo4K ??

Is the installation also new or have you been working with another deco?
Neither on the manufacturer's website of the LNB indicates consumption data.
From memory some can consume 120 to 200mAmp. that added to the 300mAmp engine peak.
it can be a problem, that's why I would change the LNB for another normal one to do the test.
So you leave doubts quickly.

It installs a list of channels for the receiver engine, they give problems when you send the antenna to a satellite that does not have channels, it sounds strange, but it's like that.
After installing the list, restart the receiver completely so that it is 100% operational.
--------
El tuner FBC no tiene opcion para subir 1 voltio para cables largos.
Para descartar un problema de consumo del LNB, si tienes un LNB viejo, cambialo y verifica que funciona bien.
No da problema el tuner que tiene ese deco, lo tengo con 60 metros de cable de bajas perdidas, motor SG2100A 300mAmp + IBU 120mAmp = 420mAmp, lo mueve bien.
Esta configurado con usals o DiSEqC 1.2. el receptor VU+Ultimo4K??

La instalacion tambien es nueva o ya la tenias fucionando con otro deco?
Ni en la web del fabricante del LNB indica datos de consumo.
De memoria algunos pueden consumir de 120 a 200mAmp. que sumado al pico del motor 300mAmp.
puede ser un problema, por eso cambiaria el LNB por otro normal para hacer la prueba.
Asi sales de dudas rapidamente.

Instala una lista de canales para motor al receptor, dan problemas cuando mandas la antena a un satelite que no tenga canales, suena raro, pero es asi.
Despues de instalar la lista, reinicia el deco completamente para que este operativa al 100%.
 
Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

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Install an a/b switch between LNB and motor, when you wish to move between satellites, flick to the non connected setting.
 
A

a33

Member
Messages
433
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
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NL
Yes, motor runs fine without the LNB.
So, if the needed LNB-current would be the problem:
Did you try(for testing reasons) moving the motor while the other connected receivers supply 18 volt to the LNB? In that case the VU+ wouldn't need to supply the LNB-power; so if that is the problem the motor should probably work, that way.
Otherwise try the single-LNB test as suggested.

With a modification of the motor, it could be made to turn on external power, I guess. You'd need an extra cable to the motor, though.
If you have a free output on the octo LNB, you could also try to power that with an external 18V lead also, I guess.
All depends on if the needed (LN:cool:current really causes the problem.

From what I read octo LNBs aren't the most reliable, BTW. Don't know if this is part of the problem.

greetz,
A33
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Unfortunately a multi output single satellite LNB's internal power circuitry does not work that way, only one receiver or the one connected to the #1 output would be supplying the DC power, otherwise when a second or third receiver tried to switch to a +13 volt transponder with another receiver switched to a +18 volt transponder, it would not work, the two power supply's would fight each other, this would be a big problem.

A single satellite mufti receiver LNB would be using +13 and +18 volt switching for the satellites transponders, but only one receiver would be supplying the voltage and current to run the LNB, all other attached receiver's would only be sensed for the transponder switching voltage and not be able to supply the power for the LNB.

Some LNB internal power circuitry can switch to the other ports for DC power but only if the receiver attached to the #1 port is powered down or not connected,(in some cases) this would be done with a diode matrix, only the highest DC voltage gets through to supply the internal power.
 
A

a33

Member
Messages
433
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
My Location
NL
Some LNB internal power circuitry can switch to the other ports for DC power but only if the receiver attached to the #1 port is powered down or not connected,(in some cases) this would be done with a diode matrix, only the highest DC voltage gets through to supply the internal power.
If there are just diodes involved in this circuitry, I cannot imagine a priority for port #1 (whichever port that might be, without any indication on the LNB outside). I wouldn't know how to get that, with just using diodes; at least transistors would be needed.

I know for quatro LNBs, most of them can be powered through any port you like. Just a few types of quatro LNBs are powered through only ONE port, thus saving internal parts, and saving a bit of energy that way. In that case usually it is written on the LNBoutside, which port that is.

On Unicable/JESS LNBs I believe there also applies: the highest supplied voltage is the power-supplier. It must be, or the switching commands wouldn't come through.

For twin/quad/octo LNBs I haven't seen this tested, or seen circuitry diagrams. However I would think a diode circuitry (highest voltage wins) would appear much easier to me than a transistor-priority circuitry, as you describe. And I've never seen a quad LNB with an indication of "port #1", so why don't they indicate this?
As for functionality, there doesn't seem to be a priority order for the LNB outputs, afaik. If there is 13V at port #1, there would be no problem to get 18V-signals from other ports; and vice versa, I think.


So, have you tested this? Or circuit diagrams, which indicate this port#1-priority?
I'd be much obliged.

Greetz,
A33
 
Trust1

Trust1

Specialist Contributor
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829
My Satellite Setup
1.8 m CM at SMR 1224 + Elev. with 7 lnb changer Ku (lin - circ) - Ka (lin - circ) C (lin - circ)
My Location
Nijmegen Netherlands
grabbed an old Maximum PRO-LINE P-8 OCTO lnb .
Connected port 1 with a mA meter in line to my Maxplus 2100S
Vert 13.75 v 188.5 mA
Hor 18.03 v 188.7 mA
Powering another port with 18 or 13 v
Port 1 Vert 13.75 v 188.5 mA drops to 108.4 mA
Port 1 Hor 18.03 v 188.7 mA drops to 113.7 mA

Connected port 2 till 8 with a mA meter in line to my Maxplus 2100S

Powering another port with 18 or 13 v ( same result at all the ports )
 
Trust1

Trust1

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My Satellite Setup
1.8 m CM at SMR 1224 + Elev. with 7 lnb changer Ku (lin - circ) - Ka (lin - circ) C (lin - circ)
My Location
Nijmegen Netherlands
with 2 extra ports powered 80.8 mA / 3 extra 64.4 mA
all 7 extra 43.6 mA on mA meter
 
A

a33

Member
Messages
433
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Clarketech HD4100+
My Location
NL
So... it isn't "highest voltage wins", as I assumed, but "sharing currents evenly", or something like that!
Nice solution, thinking of it. Not putting a burden on just one receiver. :)

Nice that you tested this, Wim!

grabbed an old Maximum PRO-LINE P-8 OCTO lnb .
Connected port 1 with a mA meter ....
Was there, in fact, a port indicated as 'port 1'? Or was this just as a manner of speaking?

Greetz,
A33
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Sorry but I don't have a schematic for an 8 port LNB handy, and yes this has been tested in my lab on a 4 port output LNB at work back a long time ago.

Trust1, the test you did was with only one receiver attached, (your Maxplus 2100) and coupled out somehow to multiple ports on the LNB, try this with 8 different receivers attached, and the LNB in an active mode actually receiving a satellite signal, and the different receivers on different channels and different polarity transponders.

Also we used specially modified receiver's to monitor the LNB's current draw, these receivers were modified to allow the active RF circuit to be monitored without affecting the signal to/from the LNB, attaching an amp meter inline would cause the RF circuit to not work as designed.

The closest thing I can find for a schematic would be this application guide for a matrix switching IC,(link to a PDF at the bottom of this post) it is a very simple one, look at pages 6 and 13, on page 6 at the bottom it shows the DC current draw with one active LO output port, and all 4 active, as you can see the DC current draw goes up when more ports are active, on page 13 is the simplified schematic showing the DC power inputs from the attached receivers.

It shows 4 DC voltage regulators, one on each receiver port, this is not common to most consumer grade LNB's as the cost would be too high, but after the regulators it shows each feeding into a diode, in a perfect world with perfect parts the regulators would put out exactly the same DC voltage, and then all 4 would be feeding the power.

But there are very few DC regulators that would feed the exact same DC voltage, so with diode's seeing a slightly different DC voltage on the input only the one seeing the highest voltage would feed the circuit, and again there are no perfect diodes, and seeing that the power supplys are a very simple design they can't be directly attached together into one feed, one or more would get quite hot.

I will admit that not all LNB's are the same internal design and use the same type of circuitry, I have seen many many different designs and configurations over the years.

If you want to monitor the DC current and voltage out to an active LNB the best way would to take a look for the internal DC power circuit for the LNB connection on the receiver, look for the DC power feed from the receivers main power supply to this circuit, it is there you would do the DC current and voltage measurements (with proper calibration) for the attached LNB with special circuitry as to not affect the RF path to the receivers tuner.

Code:
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN11674.pdf

Opps sorry too much coffee this morning again, I'm rambling on again....My fault.
 
Terryl

Terryl

Specialist Contributor
Messages
2,305
My Satellite Setup
OpenBox X5 on a 1 meter motorized dish.
And now a 10 foot "C" band dish.

Custom built PC
My Location
Deep in the Boonies in the central Sierra Nevada mountains of California.
Sorry this may be getting out of line with helping him fix his problem....

Anaksanamune....Do you have a single or dual output LNB to try this with??? The multi 8 port LNB may be a bit too much for this setup.

I have run motorized satellite setups with a 2 port LNB fed into an externally powered multi-switch to use more then one receiver, it worked out just fine, but only one receiver was used to move the dish.
 
Trust1

Trust1

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Messages
829
My Satellite Setup
1.8 m CM at SMR 1224 + Elev. with 7 lnb changer Ku (lin - circ) - Ka (lin - circ) C (lin - circ)
My Location
Nijmegen Netherlands
I would believe that at a active working lnb the current will be a little different , but my test shows that the more ports are powered , the lower the current for each port is at this particulair Octo

octo nrs.jpglnb
 
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