Advice Needed please help me with my special situation

nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
I have a complicated case but I will try to be short.
It is possible to go his way:
lnb->22k->splitter->ms1
------------------------>ms2
The reason for using 22k is for the dual lnb with 22k integrated to use ok side of the lnb.
Without 22k inbetween ms will pass 22k tone to lnb.
Because the lnb was mod for offset focus and only 0k side can be used.

I have success in going this way
lnb->22k->ms
But I need more input for stbs.

Thank you very much and let me know if you find something doesn't make sense.


Thanks.
 
Topper

Topper

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rolfw

rolfw

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I'm assuming you're talking about a Monobloc LNB? How about uploading some pictures.
 
william-1

william-1

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OP Gibertini 100 XP+ Inverto Black Ultra 0.2
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Raven 88cm Mesh Dish + TM-1 0.1
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45cm dish V8 Golden 28E FreeSat Quad Lnb
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Maybe this will help you if you have a Monoblock set up:-

DSCF0189.JPG

You can use 2 mono blocks with 2 x 2 way splitters.
 
nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
This is the mono-block lnb I am referring to.
I have two of this lnbf modified like this.
I connect a zinwell 6x8 ms to them.
I realised that for the 22k on inputs to the ms, the lnbf should be modified to use also the 22k on side.
However, the lnbf was already modified.
Therefore I connect a 22k switch between ms and lnbf to block the 22k tone so that the lnbf thinks it should use the 0k side.

So it works like this: lnbf->22k->ms->stb
as well as lnbf->ms->stb

However, I need more than 8 stbs.
I therefore tried to expand the setup with splitter and additional ms.
So it goes like this:
lnbf->22k->splitter->ms1->stb1
------------------------>ms2->stb2

This time it doesn't seem to work.
 

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william-1

william-1

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Location
Epping Forest
My Satellite Setup
OP Gibertini 100 XP+ Inverto Black Ultra 0.2
Superior Dark Motor (160° max)
(50 east to 34.5 west)
TM6902HD (A/B switch) Octagon SX88+Optima

Raven 88cm Mesh Dish + TM-1 0.1
Stab100 H to H (120° max)
(53 east to 45 west)
Octagon SX88+ (A/B switch) Edision S2

45cm dish V8 Golden 28E FreeSat Quad Lnb
Virgin Media FreeSat
My Location
Epping Forest Essex
A better solution ditch the mono - blocks for single Lnb's connected to a zinwell 6x8,

You will get better signals with single Lnb's set up.
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
Due to your very short description I still have difficulty to visualize your setup.

This time it doesn't seem to work.
After adding the 'splitter it doesn't work on multiswitch 1 or on multiswitch 2? Or on both?

What kind of splitter do you use? (with or without power pass? power pass in what direction?)

Do you only want the splitting on ONE port of this LNB?
A line like this
lnb->22k->splitter->ms1
suggests there are no other ports on the used parts, and makes it difficult to visualize how you have it all set-up, and where the problem could lie.

greetz,
A33
 
Terryl

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Your also going to loose 3 dB of signal on the splitter, (equates to 1/2 of the available RF power at the input to the splitter) this may be too much loss for some receivers.
 
nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
Due to your very short description I still have difficulty to visualize your setup.


After adding the 'splitter it doesn't work on multiswitch 1 or on multiswitch 2? Or on both?

What kind of splitter do you use? (with or without power pass? power pass in what direction?)

Do you only want the splitting on ONE port of this LNB?
A line like this

suggests there are no other ports on the used parts, and makes it difficult to visualize how you have it all set-up, and where the problem could lie.

greetz,
A33
As the attachment shows, I want to use splitters this way.
I am adding 22k switch between lnb and splitters for the reason mentioned above.
22k switch will only to added for those cable that connects to "22k on" inputs to the ms.
The splitter says all port power pass.
No, I actually need to split each port of the lnb as I need every stb to be able to have both horizontal and vertical channels on both satellites.
 

Attachments

nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
A better solution ditch the mono - blocks for single Lnb's connected to a zinwell 6x8,

You will get better signals with single Lnb's set up.
Sorry that's no an option.
I am dealing with Japanese satellite system where the standard is to its own.
The lnb working voltage is 11v/15v, not 13v/18v, for v/h switching.
Zinwell switch as some Japanese users found out, work to switch on 11v/15v.
However, we need to use mono-block to achieve multi-stb setup.
There are no dual-output lnb for Japanese satellite system.
There is only single 11200 Japanese standard lnb, which means I need as many as 4 dishes to achieve this.

Thanks.
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
Thanks for the extra information.

The splitter says all port power pass.
That's not good. Using these, both multiswitches try to power the LNB.
I'd use a one port power passing splitter, which is DC-blocked on one port; as written in your added picture, by the way.
(You can experiment yourself by adding a capacitor on one of the two ports.)

What's the answer to this question:
After adding the 'splitter it doesn't work on multiswitch 1 or on multiswitch 2? Or on both?
I'm still trying to figure out what is happening there, exactly.

Greetz,
A33
 
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nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
A33,

I thought it is a good idea to use power pass splitter.
If stb on ms1 is power off and not provide voltage to lnb, and I use DC-blocked splitter which blocks DC from ms2, stb on ms2 will not be able to watch, no?
Zinwell 6x8 passes voltage from stb to lnb.

I don't have an answer to your question 2.
I just didn't pay attention to if ms1 or ms2, or both didn't work.
Because the multi-stb system is providing service to my customers, I need to provide a working solution to them immediately. I reverted back to my old setup, where I used modified emp-centauri ms 4 x 16, which switch on 11v/15v, but provides 13v/18v to lnb with built-in power supply.
I can then use regular dual output lnb with 11300 LO.

Maybe the easier workaround is to modify another mono-block lnb and use 22k on side of the lnb?

As I said, the 22k off side of the ms, even if I add splitter to it, it works without problem.
 
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A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
I thought it is a good idea to use power pass splitter.
If stb on ms1 is power off and not provide voltage to lnb, and I use DC-blocked splitter which blocks DC from ms2, stb on ms2 will not be able to watch, no?
Zinwell 6x8 passes voltage from stb to lnb.
Many all-port power pass splitters do pass power both ways. In that case power from the in-use MS can also reach the out-of-use MS. I don't know how both will react.
But maybe your power pass splitter is one way (with diodes).
In that case I can follow your line of reasoning, but....: when both MS deliver 22kHz, interference will occur, and I wouldn't know how your system reacts to that.
That might be what caused the malfunction when you tried.

When you don't want the 22kHz interference, maybe it would help to make the voltage of one MS 1 volt (or so) lower (adding 1 or 2 diodes)? Theoretically that could work, but I never tried it!
However I don't know how stable the LNB-voltage of a receiver-fed MS is, so there could be problems there....

So the 22kHz does indeed contribute to your problem, I would guess.


I'm also thinking about a way to power your LNB through your second MS, when the first one is off, by a relay in the 'signal'path of the second MS (fed by the first MS). The relay would 'short' the DC-blocked port of the added splitter (only ONE port power pass splitter). I'm not 100% sure, though, that the 22kHz from MS2 doesn't pass the DCblocked port of the splitter: too tired now to think straight (23 o'clock here now).
This also might be theoretically OK, but I haven't tested it, nor seen it tested on the forums...


Greetz,
A33
 
nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
I think your second way will work, as I noticed in the attachment "lnb ms.jpg"
It does say splitter should be 2 way one port power passing.
Although I don't quite understand your logic in the last paragraph.

I think you are also correct that 22k is causing my problem here with the use of all port power passing splitters.

Thanks.
 
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A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
How my diode-solution would work:
The 22kHz is superimposed on the DC voltage with an amplitude of x (0.6 volt or so? don't now the value by heart).
When with MS1 the lowest voltage of this amplitude is lower than the highest voltage of MS2, interference occurs.
So what you want is that the highest voltage of MS2 is lower than the lowest voltage of MS1; using diodes. Then no interference can occur.
Of course the voltage must still be enough to power the LNB. That you can assess yourself.

My relay-solution would keep power from MS2 cut-off (by the relay), while power of MS1 is on. You only have to have a separate signal-path (DC-blocked) for the MS2, while MS1 is on.
But though it could work, I'm no fan of 'hard' switches.

However I thought of a third way, which I would also prefer (next to the diode-solution):
While your LNB just needs power and no 22kHz, why not use a separate external power supply and a 'power inserter'? No need for any 0/22kHz switches then. In the signal path you can split whatever you want (using DC-blocked splitters).
When you're not familiar with a power inserter: A power inserter has a coil to pass the power while diminishing the passing of RF-signals in the 'power' path, and a capacitor in the RF-path.

greetz,
A33
 
nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
How my diode-solution would work:
The 22kHz is superimposed on the DC voltage with an amplitude of x (0.6 volt or so? don't now the value by heart).
When with MS1 the lowest voltage of this amplitude is lower than the highest voltage of MS2, interference occurs.
So what you want is that the highest voltage of MS2 is lower than the lowest voltage of MS1; using diodes. Then no interference can occur.
Of course the voltage must still be enough to power the LNB. That you can assess yourself.

My relay-solution would keep power from MS2 cut-off (by the relay), while power of MS1 is on. You only have to have a separate signal-path (DC-blocked) for the MS2, while MS1 is on.
But though it could work, I'm no fan of 'hard' switches.

However I thought of a third way, which I would also prefer (next to the diode-solution):
While your LNB just needs power and no 22kHz, why not use a separate external power supply and a 'power inserter'? No need for any 0/22kHz switches then. In the signal path you can split whatever you want (using DC-blocked splitters).
When you're not familiar with a power inserter: A power inserter has a coil to pass the power while diminishing the passing of RF-signals in the 'power' path, and a capacitor in the RF-path.

greetz,
A33
Greetings,
I haven't been to able to play around with the multi-receives system that I have since last time I reverted to the old setup, where I use a regular dual lnb with 11300 LO and a mod emp-centauri that switches on 11v/15v but sends 13v/18v to the lnbf.

I have been carefully reviewed your solutions above.
Your diode-solution is interesting. However, since zinwell 6x8 passes the voltage from the stb, and I use different models and brands of stbs, it is hard to make sure the voltage from the stb is within the range desires. Therefore, I didn't want to go with this approach.

I still don't quite understand your relay solution. What exactly do I need to do to keep power from ms2 cut-off when power of ms1 is on?
Can you provide more details?

I am interested in your power-inserter solution. It is a solution I think I can understand correctly. I just need to confirm that there is some mechanism to block the 22k to reach the lnb. As the ms will send 22k to lnb even with the power inserter in-between. Unless the power inserter can block the 22k signal.


I have one additional question, which is that do you people in europe that use satellite system need to use one of the three solutions to achieve a multi-ms system?
I asked because the picture that I attached with splitter and ms in it was downloaded from a European forum and it didn't mentioned any of additional procedures needed to use the setup except to use one port power pass splitter.


Thanks.
 
A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
I still don't quite understand your relay solution. What exactly do I need to do to keep power from ms2 cut-off when power of ms1 is on?
Can you provide more details?
As I wrote: Though it can work, I'm no fan of hard switches in setups like these. However, re-reading the complete topic again, I thought of a kind of electronic relay that is on the (european) market already, and does about what you want: the (smart) priority switch! That gives (voltage) control to the 'master port', when that carries power; but when the master port doesn't carry power, the 'slave port' gets power control, and powers the LNB. So it acts like a kind of splitter, which lets the 'master port' power the LNB, and when the master is powerless, the slave powers (and controls) the LNB.
However, the switching inside the priority switch is done by PIN-diodes, it seems. That means when the master has power, the slave also has signal, but with somewhat irregular signal loss on some frequencies! When used with 2 stb's, i've never seen reports of problems, but I don't know if that would be the same with two MSs, as you have.
I've also never seen reported that the PIN-diode of the slave port was bypassed with (or replaced by) a capacitor, to prevent this irregular signal loss to the slave port. Would be an interesting test for some hobbyist. :)

I think this kind of solution would be a good try! It would mean continued power to the LNB when MS1 is powerles, but MS2 wants signal. And no 22kHz interference problems, as that is taken care of by the priority switch as well.
Your 0/22kHz switch would still be needed in this setup, though.

I am interested in your power-inserter solution. It is a solution I think I can understand correctly. I just need to confirm that there is some mechanism to block the 22k to reach the lnb. As the ms will send 22k to lnb even with the power inserter in-between. Unless the power inserter can block the 22k signal.
Thinking further through this line of solving:
Your MSs give up to 16 volt, but your LNB needs 18 Volts?
Then you would need a 18 volt power supply, and a 3-way splitter, with all ports ports power pass ONE WAY (with diodes).
If three ports have (one way) power pass, the 18 volts on one of the ports 'overrules' the 16 volts + superimposed 22 kHz. The power supply port needs a coil of some uH, though, to stop the RF signal to the power supply.
I must say: I've never tested this myself, or seen it tested. I understand your worry about the 22kHz; in the worst case you still need your 0/22kHz switch inbetween.
I'm not sure if this worry might even be worse in case of a splitter with only ONE port power pass, with the power supply connected to that, and the others don't having power pass. Your 0/22kHz switch might also still be needed in that setup? I 'm not an electronic engineer, alas, so I am not sure of the effects of such splitter-setups....


Your 0/22 kHz switch still is a creative solution for a 22kHz blocker, that I've never thought of before. ;)
As I've never seen anyone connecting a 0 kHz LNB to a 22 kHz port of a multiswitch before... :D

I have one additional question, which is that do you people in europe that use satellite system need to use one of the three solutions to achieve a multi-ms system?
I asked because the picture that I attached with splitter and ms in it was downloaded from a European forum and it didn't mentioned any of additional procedures needed to use the setup except to use one port power pass splitter.
More often I see the use of cascaded multiswitches. So the splitting is done inside of the MSs. Have you thought about such a solution too? Or is that hardly possible in your case?
Powering receiver-fed multiswitches is an issue here also; with more difficult setups (and multiple multiswitches) people often will use a MS with external power supply again. So that questions such as yours don't arise.

The lower voltage of 11/15 volts in your case does cause extra concerns, as does your 0kHz LNB on a 22kHz port.
It's a challange to think of solutions, though!

I hope I helped you with my thoughts. No guarantees that my solutions would work. Your questions, however, are not standard as well.... :)

Greetz,
A33

Edit: BTW, anyone else on this forum with experience of the effects of (power passing) splitters, and the YES/NO passing of 22kHz signal from various ports? Would be nice to know how these splitters react, in practice.
 
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nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
Thanks so much for your reply.
Regarding your question:
"Your MSs give up to 16 volt, but your LNB needs 18 Volts?"
My stb sends 15v and the mono-block Japanese LNB that I modified also needs 15v.
It is the regular dual LNB that needs 18v which I use with a modified EMP centauri MS with external power supply.
Like I said, it is been modified so that it switches between h and v at 11v/15v, while sends 13v/18v to the LNB.


"More often I see the use of cascaded multiswitches. So the splitting is done inside of the MSs. Have you thought about such a solution too? Or is that hardly possible in your case?"

I never heard about the term "cascaded multiswitches" I will study a little more on this.

Maybe when I have time and resources, such as additional dishes besides the ones in production, I will experiment more about this.
For now, I can use zinwell 6x8 and two modified monoblock, and 2 22k switches to provide service to up to 8 stbs.
Just for the information, for a multi-stb system, Japanese companies have provided expensive solutions, which is different from a MS solution.
The whole system costs JPY 200,000 or more, not include stbs. For this reason, I have been searching for a less costly way to achieve a multi-stb system for Japanese satellite. It is lucky that I was able to contact EMP and they are willing to modify the ms for me. As you know, a 4x16 emp ms is in the range of 100-200 euros only.

Later, I found that some Japanese uses two dual-output monoblock LNBs, which was originally intended for users who want to have up to 2 stbs in their household. They use it and a zinwell 6x8 ms that doesn't need external power, but passes power from stb to lnb. And zinwell ms switches correctly on 11v/15v, too. In Japan, they only need 45cm dish for their satellite 124e, and 128e. The mono-block LNB fits and works perfectly on a 45cm in Japan. Therefore, they don't need to modify the monoblock like I do. In Taiwan, where I live, I need 90cm to 120cm dish to receive the footage. The monoblock doesn't work on a 120 or 90cm. Therefore, I need to modify it.

I have friend in Taiwan, who modified the Japanese monoblock so it works on a 120cm prime focus dish, like in the attachments.

Again, thanks for the info you provided.
 

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A

a33

Specialised Contributor
Messages
626
My Satellite Setup
XSAT410
Rebox RE-9000
My Location
NL
Interesting modification of monoblock LNBs, by modifying the feedhorn like this!
Never seen it before. :)
However monoblock LNBs her in Europe come in different sizes (distances between LNB-feedhorns).

Later, I found that some Japanese uses two dual-output monoblock LNBs, which was originally intended for users who want to have up to 2 stbs in their household. They use it and a zinwell 6x8 ms that doesn't need external power, but passes power from stb to lnb.
Is it about KU-band, linear polarity? Low band and Highband (10700-12750), or just low band or just high band?
Can't you use singe LNBs, dual output? (or even quatro output LNBs?) instead of modified monoblocks?

Just trying to understand the different setups you might need at the other side of the world....

greetz,
A33
 
nadal liu

nadal liu

Regular Member
Messages
37
My Satellite Setup
120cm offset dishes for 124e and 128e with emp centauri profi multiswitch 9x16, and 5x20
,180cm prime dish with lo 10678 ku lnb for 110e bs/cs
My Location
Hong Kong
It is KU-based, linear polarity, and high-band only. We can get single LNB that works on 11v/15v but no dual or quatro lnb.
The standard lnb is 11200 LO for Japanese satellite system. Luckily the Japanese stbs allow setting LO to a customized value, say 11300, so I can use my modified EMP centauri ms and 11300 LO lnbs on a Japanese stbs.
 
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