Powering the lights in a powercut...

[Topper]

God I hate acronyms.

Me too there are too many to remember and always more to learn

But wouldn't an RCD be on a lead to your lawnmower and not in the consumer unit?

 

[RedDevil_UK]

why dont you get an emergency light fitted?

they do exacly what you asking... no extra wires, and all in one neat box

you could have as many as you want too

 

[pgh13]

But wouldn't an RCD be on a lead to your lawnmower and not in the consumer unit?

Probably, but under current regs sockets which may be used to supply apparatus outdoors have to be protected by RCD. What you often get these days is a split load cunsumer unit so that some of the circuits are protected and some aren't; so sockets - especially downstairs would trip if someone got a shock but lights would stay on

 

[2cvbloke]

why dont you get an emergency light fitted?

they do exacly what you asking... no extra wires, and all in one neat box

you could have as many as you want too

Cos I'd have to pay more than the price of a junction box....

The last emergency light I saw needed it's own power feed so that it stayed charged and came on when the power went off, so still would need extra cables and such...

I'll just stick to the equipment I have for now...

 

[2cvbloke]

Oh, and I did mean MCB, not RCD, but they're all tripswitches to me...

 

[pgh13]

Cos I'd have to pay more than the price of a junction box....

The last emergency light I saw needed it's own power feed so that it stayed charged and came on when the power went off, so still would need extra cables and such...

I'll just stick to the equipment I have for now...

Lighting circuits often have the live coming into the ceiling rose with a wire going out to the switch, so may not need extra cable.

 

[2cvbloke]

Lighting circuits often have the live coming into the ceiling rose with a wire going out to the switch, so may not need extra cable.

Not in my house, it's been badly rewired, the live runs through the switch, to the light then to neutral, there's no switchwire from the roses in any of my lights...

 

[Topper]

Not in my house, it's been badly rewired, the live runs through the switch, to the light then to neutral, there's no switchwire from the roses in any of my lights...

Struth mate is that rubber cables and round pin sockets too

 

[2cvbloke]

Struth mate is that rubber cables and round pin sockets too

Thankfully no....

Although I wouldn't mind some retro electrical stuff....

 

[tapfit2004]

i am an electrical contractor based in ireland, but i have done the city and guilds exams iee 16th edition.

most lighting circuits are not wired in a ring, i have never come across one in 15 years. socket circuits in kitchens would be, as it effectively doubles the size of the cable to each point (2.5 mmsq from each side = 5 mmsq) which allows an increased fuse/mcb protection.

when connecting a ring circuit to a fuse board/consumer unit you would always bring the two ends of the circuit directly back to the fuse/mcb as if you joint them before hand and only bring 1 cable back you defeat the purpose of running in a ring circuit in the first place.

the way you explain that your house is wired with lives going to the switches and neutrals going directly to the lights is the old way of running in lighting circuits, used because it uses less cable and cable was more expensive than labour costs years ago (new way of wiring is quicker but uses a lot more cable)

you will need a live and neutral to charge your ups so you will only be able to install it at a point where you have a live and neutral present. the best place would be beside your consumer unit. before starting turn off the main switch/fuse, and make sure that your neutral bar is not live. (i have come across this a couple of times where the elecrticity companies tails have been swapped so be warned)

the easiest way to connect would be to remove the lighting circuit live and neutral from the fuse board/consumer unit and connect them to the output of your ups, then run two new live and neutral cables from your fuse board/consumer unit to the input of your ups. if your fuse/mcb value is 10amps (as in most lighting circuits) you should change the fuse/mcb down to 6 amps or put in a fused spur unit fed from the existing 10a fuse/mcb with a 5 amp fuse in it. alternatively you could just put in a socket and plug in the ups, but by the regs this socket should be protected by an rcd.

if your lights are on two different fuses/mcb's, make sure that there is a different neutral wire coming back from the light in the cellar (you should have 2 lighting neutrals at the fuse board/consumer unit if fed from two different fuses/mcb's). if there is 2 lighting neutrals then no need to read the next section as it gets a bit complicated and i might not have explained it fully (its nearly 2am and i need some sleep)

if there is only 1 lighting neutral and your supply to the ups is broken without all the power going off (ie the fuse blows or mcb trips on your ups protected circuit) you could end up with the neutral being live at the output of your ups. (this would happen if the light in the cellar was switched on and the fuse/mcb for the ups supplied lights was blown/tripped.) see diagram below


[fuse 1]-----live------[ ups ]---L--(switch)--(light)--|
{neutral bar}----neutral--[ box ]X--N---------------------|
[fuse 2]-----live-----------------(switch)--(cellar light)-|

--- & | are wires

X is the point which would be live as the ups would have cut off the neutral rerurn to the neutral bar because it would see no power coming from fuse 1(tripped or blown) and power coming from fuse 2 through the bulb in the cellar light would have no return path either thus it would become live at the neutral connection on the ups. easiest way to cure this is to run a seperate neutral to the cellar light.

hope this helps. if you have any questions or think i need to explian better post back but it might take a few days for me to respond as my internet connection is on the blink so i dont get online that often. regards, tf

 

[2cvbloke]

Well, thanks for that reply, took a couple of reads to soak in, but one thing to clear up, the Lighting neutral...

As I'm not planning on going down to my (flooded) cellar in a powercut the cellar light will not be connected (also as it has a 100w bulb in it), but if this Lighting neutral is on the same connection for both cellar and the rest of the house lights, then it could be a bit of a danger to me (or the UPS) if the neutral line becomes live?

Anyway, as for a plug, I have decided that I'd use a 5Amp plug & socket (see first two attatched images) instead of a standard socket & plug. But to reduce the MCB to a 6A MCB do I change the one in the consumer, or do I add a second mini-consumer (see third pic) fitted with a 6a MCB with the cable for the lights going through this, then out to the socket, then a cable from the UPS to a Junction box and out to the lights?

Ta...

 

[Channel Hopper]

or you could move to a house underneath a pylon, and install fluorescents vertically on the walls and in the garden

http://www.gorge.org/images/field/

 

[2cvbloke]

or you could move to a house underneath a pylon, and install fluorescents vertically on the walls and in the garden

http://www.gorge.org/images/field/

I'd rather have a Tesla coil powering my Fluos....

 

[BarMoo]

Ring circuits are so 1974. So, some numbnut cuts through a cable in the box room: the idea being that all the other sockets on the ring will continue to work . I think the idea is perfect for the National Grid, but, frankly most English houses are so tiny - you could wire one up with a 100m of hard-wire and have 20 metres left for the next new-build.

I'm joking. But most new techno light/socket systems are radial.

I would .......

a. introduce an appropriate breaker into the consumer unit (value as indicated by UPS). then with spec [1.5mm hard? forgotten the english word - its grey] cable, run from there to a fused connection unit (junction box) [read: immersion heater outlet] box. This supplies the UPS via flexi rope.

b. From the o/p of the UPS, run entirely new radial circuits (via another flexi-to-hard cable connection box) to each lamp rose and/or whatever socket outlet you consider should be un-interuptabubble; using the correct (or spray painted) red sockets/ceiling disks and that grey cable stuff (which I wish I could remember the name of).

UPS socket outlets are designated RED and light fixtures are accompanied by a red disk clearly visible nearby. Red, emergency, get it, LOL.

The interesting part is the socket/light mixture (for a house, that is). Certainly, the best and most reasonable thing to do is to designate one room in the house for a UPS socket (not necessarily for a PC- but a known max rated device) and then go about 'installing' everything from the cable from the UPS - up the walls, through the ceiling and back to a flush socket (red, naturally).

8. Here is what I would really do:-

z. Forget the PC, else plug the UPS (with flex) directly at the outlet where the PC is currently located - and run your PC 'un-interupted' - and;

f. Do as Polo said, have emergency lamps hooked up to the lighting circuit, but with LED lamps I have four of these little buggers (22 leds in each unit) and when all four are ON they burn less than the smallest 'energy' lamp from IKEA - and they look cool;) 4x22000 lux aint too bad.

## Funny story, totally illegal. My director friend wanted a lamp on the landing. Fine. He wanted it to be switched from the bedroom, fine! He wanted the socket to be at spec-above-floor level - OK.

I did all the work, wanted to use a 3pin round (3amp) light socket (they are used here in Germany BTW ) - but my director friend didn't buy one.

Still moaning about his lamp I used one of my ordinary 13amp sockets.

Then he sold his house.

I wonder to this day whether someone has plugged the hoover into that socket and ..............

.

 

[2cvbloke]

Ring circuits are so 1974. So, some numbnut cuts through a cable in the box room: the idea being that all the other sockets on the ring will continue to work . I think the idea is perfect for the National Grid, but, frankly most English houses are so tiny - you could wire one up with a 100m of hard-wire and have 20 metres left for the next new-build.

I'm joking. But most new techno light/socket systems are radial.

Ok...

I would .......

Yes?

a. introduce an appropriate breaker into the consumer unit (value as indicated by UPS). then with spec [1.5mm hard? forgotten the english word - its grey] cable, run from there to a fused connection unit (junction box) [read: immersion heater outlet] box. This supplies the UPS via flexi rope.

Eh?

b. From the o/p of the UPS, run entirely new radial circuits (via another flexi-to-hard cable connection box) to each lamp rose and/or whatever socket outlet you consider should be un-interuptabubble; using the correct (or spray painted) red sockets/ceiling disks and that grey cable stuff (which I wish I could remember the name of).

Erm, Cable?

UPS socket outlets are designated RED and light fixtures are accompanied by a red disk clearly visible nearby. Red, emergency, get it, LOL.

Whyyyyy?

The interesting part is the socket/light mixture (for a house, that is). Certainly, the best and most reasonable thing to do is to designate one room in the house for a UPS socket (not necessarily for a PC- but a known max rated device) and then go about 'installing' everything from the cable from the UPS - up the walls, through the ceiling and back to a flush socket (red, naturally).

I just want lights, nothing else...

8. Here is what I would really do:-

Erm, ok...

z. Forget the PC, else plug the UPS (with flex) directly at the outlet where the PC is currently located - and run your PC 'un-interupted' - and;

It's not connected to my PC, my other UPS is...

f. Do as Polo said, have emergency lamps hooked up to the lighting circuit, but with LED lamps I have four of these little buggers (22 leds in each unit) and when all four are ON they burn less than the smallest 'energy' lamp from IKEA - and they look cool;) 4x22000 lux aint too bad.

Not cheap enough yet....

## Funny story, totally illegal. My director friend wanted a lamp on the landing. Fine. He wanted it to be switched from the bedroom, fine! He wanted the socket to be at spec-above-floor level - OK.

I did all the work, wanted to use a 3pin round (3amp) light socket (they are used here in Germany BTW ) - but my director friend didn't buy one.

Still moaning about his lamp I used one of my ordinary 13amp sockets.

Then he sold his house.

I wonder to this day whether someone has plugged the hoover into that socket and ..............

.

Ah well, his fault....

 

[BarMoo]

Given the number of UPS's you already have, you might as well just hook them up before the consumer unit, LOL.

The easiest ropeiest method is to simply remove the lighting circuit cable from the breaker/fuse (the cable after the fuse) and leave it hanging there. Then connect the UPS MAINS IN to the vacant terminals on that fuse. Then feed the UPS MAINS OUT back to the existing (now dangling) lighting cable - using copious amounts of sellotape if necessary.

If your Insurance Company pay a visit, just tell them you have a high-powered door-bell transformer and hope your house don't burn down.

The only expense? - roll of sellotape, fake doorbell pusher, some old flat grey cable stuff.

.

 

[2cvbloke]

Given the number of UPS's you already have, you might as well just hook them up before the consumer unit, LOL.

What? Two???

The easiest ropeiest method is to simply remove the lighting circuit cable from the breaker/fuse (the cable after the fuse) and leave it hanging there. Then connect the UPS MAINS IN to the vacant terminals on that fuse. Then feed the UPS MAINS OUT back to the existing (now dangling) lighting cable - using copious amounts of sellotape if necessary.

That was the original idea...

If your Insurance Company pay a visit, just tell them you have a high-powered door-bell transformer and hope your house don't burn down.

The only expense? - roll of sellotape, fake doorbell pusher, some old flat grey cable stuff.

.

Insurance? Me needing insurance? Whatever for? All my stuff was free or cheap, so it's really worth jack....

 

[Channel Hopper]

The only expense? - roll of sellotape, fake doorbell pusher, some old flat grey cable stuff.

One issue (well two ) your energy consuption will go up by about 10%, and you may not notice you actually have a powercut.
(might be worth installing a secondary line of UPS units, just to be sure........)

 

[2cvbloke]

One issue (well two ) your energy consuption will go up by about 10%, and you may not notice you actually have a powercut.
(might be worth installing a secondary line of UPS units, just to be sure........)

Erm, if everything on the sockets goes off (TV, video, satellite, Playstation etc etc), then I'd notice!!!!

As for consumption, is that to power the LED indicator on the UPS?? O-Ha

 

[BarMoo]

might be worth installing a secondary line of UPS units, just to be sure........

Indeed. Its the only way to absolutely rule out what is happening in the real world.

All you need now is a wood powered Arga and you'll be larfing. In a real emergency, you can simply put all the 'jack' stuff in there.

Joking! Although, I am beginning to wonder

P.S. On my laymans install - have you attempted to, er, install it like that?

.