Unable to get channel 5

T

Tunes0710

New Member
Messages
6
My Satellite Setup
PC Running J-River Media Centre with TBS6909
My Location
West Sussex
Hi all,
I'm running a PC with J-River Media Centre and picked up a TBS69096 card.
I've also installed DVBDream and have been able to pick up lots of channels.. apart from Channel 5.
I even did a manual scan in DVB Dream putting in the specific details, but it's found nothing.

123973

I know the signal strength is only 60% but could this be why?
I have 2 feeds going in to the TBS card and 1 feed going in to a sky box. No sky subs, but using the card to access FTA channels, and Channel 5 works fine on that.
Have done all the usual, swapping cables about and trying on each one, but nothing.

I'm just a bit stumped!

Any advice/suggestions would be very much appreciated!
 
T

Tunes0710

New Member
Messages
6
My Satellite Setup
PC Running J-River Media Centre with TBS6909
My Location
West Sussex
Bringing up the scan in DVB Dream shows others that it's not getting anything from as well.

123976

These are the generic settings I'm using
123980
123977123978
 

Attachments

Channel Hopper

Channel Hopper

Suffering fools, so you don't have to.
Staff member
Messages
26,930
My Satellite Setup
A little less analogue, and a lot more crap.
My Location
UK South
T

Tunes0710

New Member
Messages
6
My Satellite Setup
PC Running J-River Media Centre with TBS6909
My Location
West Sussex
Did a full scan on DVB Dream
Code:
Scanning 10714 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10729 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10744 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10758 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- ITVBe (TV)
- ITVi Stream 44 (TV)
- ITV Granada (TV)
- ITV Anglia East (TV)
- ITV+1 (TV)
- ITV London (TV)
- ITV2 (TV)
- ITV4 (TV)
- CITV (TV)
- ITV4+1 (TV)
- ITV Central West (TV)
- ITV+1 (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders
- New in NIT: 12266,H,29500 NBC-QPSK 8/9 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12012,V,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12246,V,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12168,V,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12324,V,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12090,V,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 12226,H,27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 11686,V,23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25
- New in NIT: 11225,V,23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25
- New in NIT: 12382,H,27500 QPSK 5/6
- New in NIT: 11508,V,23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25
- New in NIT: 11642,H,23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25
- New in NIT: 11538,V,22000 QPSK 5/6

Scanning 10773 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10788 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- BBC R Foyle (Radio)
- BBC One W Mid (TV)
- BBC One Yk&Li (TV)
- BBC One E Mid (TV)
- BBC One East E (TV)
- BBC Parliament (TV)
- BBC One Wales (TV)
- BBC Two Wales (TV)
- BBC R3 (Radio)
- BBC R4 FM (Radio)
- BBC R4 LW (Radio)
- BBC R Scot (Radio)
- BBC R Wales (Radio)
- BBC R Ulster (Radio)
- ETV5 (TV)
- BBC WS (Radio)
- BBC R Cymru (Radio)
- BBC 6 Music (Radio)
- BBC R4 Ex (Radio)
- BBC R n Gael (Radio)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 10803 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10818 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- CBBC (TV)
- BBC One South (TV)
- BBC One S West (TV)
- BBC One Oxford (TV)
- BBC NEWS (TV)
- BBC One NI (TV)
- BBC Two NI (TV)
- BBC One NI (TV)
- CBBC (TV)
- BBC Two NI (TV)
- ETV6 (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 10832 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10847 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
- BBC One HD (TV)
- BBC Two HD (TV)
- BBC One NI HD (TV)
- BBC Two HD (TV)
- BBC One HD (TV)
- CBBC HD (TV)
- CBBC HD (TV)
- 6945 (TV)
- BBC One NI HD (TV)
- BBC Two Wal HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 10862 H 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10876 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10891 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10906 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- ITV Meridian South +1 (TV)
- UTV+1 (TV)
- talkSPORT (Radio)
- ITV (TV)
- Channel TV (TV)
- STV North (TV)
- STV West (TV)
- UTV (TV)
- ITV3 (TV)
- ITV3+1 (TV)
- STV East +1 (TV)
- ITV Granada +1 (TV)
- STV East (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders
- New in NIT: 11494,H,22000 QPSK 5/6
- New in NIT: 10832,H,23000 8PSK 3/4 r:0.25
- New in NIT: 10936,V,22000 QPSK 5/6
- New in NIT: 11386,H,29500 NBC-QPSK 8/9 p:On r:0.35
- New in NIT: 11038,V,22000 QPSK 5/6

Scanning 10921 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10936 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10964 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10994 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11012 V 22500 ACM Auto ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11024 H 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11052 H 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11068 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
- ITV HD (TV)
- ITV HD (TV)
- STV HD (TV)
- ITV Encore HD (TV)
- UTV HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:20]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11081 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11097 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
- ITV HD (TV)
- ITV HD (TV)
- ITV HD (TV)
- ITV HD (TV)
- ITV3 HD (TV)
- ITV4 HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11112 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11127 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- 4seven (TV)
- Channel 4 HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11141 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11170 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11225 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11225 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11265 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11265 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
- Peace TV (TV)
- EWTN Catholic (TV)
- EWTN Catholic (Radio)
- Peace TV Urdu (TV)
- PCNE Chinese (TV)
- Islam Ch Urdu (TV)
- mta-muslim tv (TV)
- TBN UK (TV)
- Smithsonian (TV)
- revelation (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 11307 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11307 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
- True Crime+1 (TV)
- Sony Crime+1 (TV)
- Sony Crime (TV)
- True Movies (TV)
- movies4men (TV)
- Sony Movies (TV)
- POP (TV)
- Tiny Pop+1 (TV)
- POP Max (TV)
- Sony Movies+1 (TV)
- POP Max+1 (TV)
- mov4men+1 (TV)
- POP+1 (TV)
- TrueMovies+1 (TV)
- Tiny Pop (TV)
- True Ent (TV)
- True Ent+1 (TV)
- True Crime (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11344 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11344 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
- High Street TV 5 (TV)
- CBS Reality (TV)
- CBS Reality (TV)
- CBS Reality+1 (TV)
- horror channel (TV)
- CBS Drama (TV)
- BT Sport 1 (TV)
- BT Sport 1 (TV)
- BT Sport Extra 1 (TV)
- horror ch+1 (TV)
- BT Sport Mosaic (TV)
- 55251 (TV)
- 50368 (TV)
- CBS Justice (TV)
- BT Sport 3 (TV)
- BT Sport 3 (TV)
- 50342 (TV)
- 50343 (TV)
- AMC from BT (TV)
- High Street TV 3 (TV)
- YourTV (TV)
- S4C (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11385 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11385 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
- BT Sport 1 HD (TV)
- BT Sport 1 HD (TV)
- 50662 (TV)
- 50663 (TV)
- AMC from BTHD (TV)
- 50682 (TV)
- 50683 (TV)
- BT Sport 3 HD (TV)
- BT Sport 3 HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 11425 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11426 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
- FreeSports (TV)
- FRANCE 24 HD (TV)
- QUEST HD (TV)
- Gems TV (TV)
- Starz TV (TV)
- PBS America (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11464 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11479 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- 50889 (TV)
- Vox Africa (TV)
- CNBC (TV)
- PTV Global (TV)
- Venus TV (TV)
- Climax (TV)
- babes&brazzers (TV)
- Madani Chnl (TV)
- Hidayat TV (TV)
- TRT World (TV)
- London Live (TV)
- VTV (TV)
- B4U Movies (TV)
- B4U Music (TV)
- TVC News (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11508 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!
 
T

Tunes0710

New Member
Messages
6
My Satellite Setup
PC Running J-River Media Centre with TBS6909
My Location
West Sussex
Splitting over 2 posts due to character count limit
Code:
Scanning 11523 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11538 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11552 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11567 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- SONY TV (TV)
- Horse & Country (TV)
- GOD Channel (TV)
- RT (TV)
- AAJ TAK (TV)
- ROK (TV)
- High Street TV 1 (TV)
- SONY SAB (TV)
- TV Warehouse (TV)
- Best Direct (TV)
- GEO TV (TV)
- NTAI (TV)
- ABP News (TV)
- SONY MAX 2 (TV)
- JML Direct (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11582 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11597 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- Channels 24 (TV)
- Lucky Star (TV)
- TJC (TV)
- GN TV (TV)
- Thane (TV)
- Gospel Channel (TV)
- Craft Extra (TV)
- SonLife (TV)
- Takbeer TV (TV)
- NOW 80s (TV)
- Ideal Extra (TV)
- Create & Craft (TV)
- Ideal World (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11611 H 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11626 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- FreeSports (TV)
- Box Hits (TV)
- 4Music (TV)
- The Box (TV)
- Kerrang (TV)
- KISS (TV)
- Box Upfront (TV)
- Magic (TV)
- Abu Dhabi TV (TV)
- Premier 2 (TV)
[Scanned in 00:20]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11641 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11656 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- Television X (TV)
- TVXpaypernight (TV)
- Cruise Channel (TV)
- Price Crash (TV)
- Shop Now (TV)
- 54059 (TV)
- Zee TV (TV)
- TV (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 11671 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11685 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11719 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11739 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11758 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11778 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11798 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11817 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11836 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11856 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11876 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11895 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11914 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11934 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11954 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11973 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11992 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12012 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12032 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12051 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12070 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12090 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12110 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12129 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12148 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12168 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12188 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12207 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12226 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12246 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12266 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12285 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12304 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12324 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12344 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12363 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12382 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12402 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12422 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12441 V 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12460 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 3/4 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12480 V 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12515 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12522 V 22500 ACM Auto ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12545 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12552 V 22500 16APSK Auto ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12572 H 22000 NBC-QPSK 5/6 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12581 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12603 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12610 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12633 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12640 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12663 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12670 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 ... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!



Searching the new transponders found during network scan:18

Scanning 12266 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 8/9 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12012 V 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12246 V 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12168 V 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12324 V 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12090 V 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 12226 H 27500 8PSK 2/3 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11686 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25... L:60% Q:60%
- Bloomberg HD (TV)
- COLORS HD (TV)
- Record TV HD (TV)
- DAYSTAR HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11225 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25... L:60% Q:60%
- CGTN HD (TV)
- Arirang TV HD (TV)
- NHK World HD (TV)
- RT HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:10]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 12382 H 27500... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11508 V 23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25... L:60% Q:60%
- MUTV HD (TV)
- eir Sport 1 HD (TV)
- eir Sport 1 HD (TV)
- TRT World HD (TV)
- Racing TV HD (TV)
[Scanned in 00:19]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11642 H 23000 8PSK 2/3 r:0.25... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11538 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- Aplus TV (TV)
- TV 99 (TV)
- 92 News (TV)
- iON TV (TV)
- HUM Masala (TV)
- HUM News (TV)
- Liverpool TV (TV)
- Birmingham TV (TV)
- Word Network (TV)
- Liberty (Radio)
- Solar Radio (Radio)
- Xpanded TV2 (TV)
- KICC TV (TV)
- CHSTV (TV)
- Desi Radio (Radio)
- Bristol TV (TV)
- Cardiff TV (TV)
- Leeds TV (TV)
- Tyne & Wear TV (TV)
- WRN Europe (Radio)
- GN Radio (Radio)
- Xpanded TV (TV)
- Jazz FM (Radio)
- Faith World TV (TV)
- HUM EUROPE (TV)
- TalkingPictures (TV)
- ATN Bangla UK (TV)
- Ahlebait TV (TV)
[Scanned in 00:20]
NIT: 22 transponders

Scanning 11494 H 22000... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10832 H 23000 8PSK 3/4 r:0.25... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 10936 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- Film4 (TV)
- Channel 4 (TV)
- Film4+1 (TV)
- E4 (TV)
- Channel 4 (TV)
- Channel 4+1 (TV)
- Channel 4+1 (TV)
- Channel 4+1 (TV)
- Channel 4+1 (TV)
- E4+1 (TV)
- More4 (TV)
[Scanned in 00:20]
NIT: 51 transponders

Scanning 11386 H 29500 NBC-QPSK 8/9 p:On r:0.35... L:60% Q:60%
No channels found!

Scanning 11038 V 22000... L:60% Q:60%
- Disc.Sci+1 (TV)
- Animal Plnt+1 (TV)
- Discovery (TV)
- Discovery+1 (TV)
- TLC (TV)
- Home & Health (TV)
- HomeHealth+1 (TV)
- ID (TV)
- ID (TV)
- Disc.History+1 (TV)
- Discovery Shed (TV)
- Disc.Turbo+1 (TV)
- TLC+1 (TV)
- ID+1 (TV)
[Scanned in 00:20]
NIT: 22 transponders


TPs with no signal: 0
Empty: 101
Nameless: 0

Elapsed: 53:13

Video Channels: 251
Radio Channels: 20
Data Channels: 0
Total: 271
Scan completed.
So it is finding a full spectrum of channels... but for some reason just not getting those on the 10964 range...
 
D

dxhound2003

Regular Member
Messages
306
My Satellite Setup
Az Box Premium.
Triax 110 cm dish motorised.
Black Ultra LNB. Nov 2011 DrD F15.
My Location
Dundalk Ireland
If you Google "DVB Dream, no channels found" you will see that it has been a problem with Version 2.4 (and maybe others) in the past. I am using the newest version 3.7 with my TBS 5925 and it is working fine for everything on 28 East. Channel 5 is on a really strong transponder, so it should not have anything to do with signal strength.
 
beavs2112

beavs2112

Member
Messages
168
Location
Canada
My Satellite Setup
see signature
My Location
London, Ontario Canada
Hello @Tunes0710. Going by your scan results in post#2 it looks like you are not getting any quality readings on all the horizontal transponders. Is channel 5 a horizontal transponder? (I'm from Canada so not that familiar with UK sats). Also I am curious how you have this all connected.
 
T

Tunes0710

New Member
Messages
6
My Satellite Setup
PC Running J-River Media Centre with TBS6909
My Location
West Sussex
Hello @Tunes0710. Going by your scan results in post#2 it looks like you are not getting any quality readings on all the horizontal transponders. Is channel 5 a horizontal transponder? (I'm from Canada so not that familiar with UK sats). Also I am curious how you have this all connected.
Oh god.

Where is the slapping yourself in the face emoji. :-ohcrap:-doh

So, it seems I should have RTFM'd... but having a background in IT I thought "no... I can sort this... just plug it in and press buttons".
It seems I have been humbled, lol.

I had the sat cables plugged in to input 0 (tuner 0/1) and input 1 (tuner 2/3)...

After actually *reading* the manual (including the bit at the top about linux, which I'd skipped as was using on windows) I saw this
123983


No wonder I wasn't getting anything on Horizontal...

Reading the paragraph about using Ku band.. I swapped the input 1 to input 2 and "Hey presto!" I'm not picking up a shed load more channels.
Now I know it's working in DVB Dream, I can customise properly in J-River...

Thank you to beavs2112 for pointing out the obvious (which I had overlooked) and also dxhound2003 for stating about C5 transponder being strong - both allowed me to go back to basics and see what I had missed.


@beavs2112 - In terms of my setup, do you mean what I'm using this for, or the how it fits in to my network?
 
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